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[96.60.249.169]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 00721157ae682-739716f628csm16687517b3.25.2025.09.19.12.37.22 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 19 Sep 2025 12:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1308db50-213a-4b16-a2fc-c9b9d456a314@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 15:37:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Sandboxing strategy To: Alyssa Ross References: <87o6ritk9q.fsf@alyssa.is> <37d4dc51-4ee1-4ccf-8d37-2272988b9361@gmail.com> <871po5z5df.fsf@alyssa.is> <88e28fdf-2d77-429f-8b4f-8cef4a997ed7@gmail.com> <87qzw2shsd.fsf@alyssa.is> Content-Language: en-US From: Demi Marie Obenour Autocrypt: addr=demiobenour@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBFp+A0oBEADffj6anl9/BHhUSxGTICeVl2tob7hPDdhHNgPR4C8xlYt5q49yB+l2nipd aq+4Gk6FZfqC825TKl7eRpUjMriwle4r3R0ydSIGcy4M6eb0IcxmuPYfbWpr/si88QKgyGSV Z7GeNW1UnzTdhYHuFlk8dBSmB1fzhEYEk0RcJqg4AKoq6/3/UorR+FaSuVwT7rqzGrTlscnT DlPWgRzrQ3jssesI7sZLm82E3pJSgaUoCdCOlL7MMPCJwI8JpPlBedRpe9tfVyfu3euTPLPx wcV3L/cfWPGSL4PofBtB8NUU6QwYiQ9Hzx4xOyn67zW73/G0Q2vPPRst8LBDqlxLjbtx/WLR 6h3nBc3eyuZ+q62HS1pJ5EvUT1vjyJ1ySrqtUXWQ4XlZyoEFUfpJxJoN0A9HCxmHGVckzTRl 5FMWo8TCniHynNXsBtDQbabt7aNEOaAJdE7to0AH3T/Bvwzcp0ZJtBk0EM6YeMLtotUut7h2 Bkg1b//r6bTBswMBXVJ5H44Qf0+eKeUg7whSC9qpYOzzrm7+0r9F5u3qF8ZTx55TJc2g656C 9a1P1MYVysLvkLvS4H+crmxA/i08Tc1h+x9RRvqba4lSzZ6/Tmt60DPM5Sc4R0nSm9BBff0N m0bSNRS8InXdO1Aq3362QKX2NOwcL5YaStwODNyZUqF7izjK4QARAQABzTxEZW1pIE1hcmll IE9iZW5vdXIgKGxvdmVyIG9mIGNvZGluZykgPGRlbWlvYmVub3VyQGdtYWlsLmNvbT7CwXgE EwECACIFAlp+A0oCGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJELKItV//nCLBhr8Q AK/xrb4wyi71xII2hkFBpT59ObLN+32FQT7R3lbZRjVFjc6yMUjOb1H/hJVxx+yo5gsSj5LS 9AwggioUSrcUKldfA/PKKai2mzTlUDxTcF3vKx6iMXKA6AqwAw4B57ZEJoMM6egm57TV19kz PMc879NV2nc6+elaKl+/kbVeD3qvBuEwsTe2Do3HAAdrfUG/j9erwIk6gha/Hp9yZlCnPTX+ VK+xifQqt8RtMqS5R/S8z0msJMI/ajNU03kFjOpqrYziv6OZLJ5cuKb3bZU5aoaRQRDzkFIR 6aqtFLTohTo20QywXwRa39uFaOT/0YMpNyel0kdOszFOykTEGI2u+kja35g9TkH90kkBTG+a EWttIht0Hy6YFmwjcAxisSakBuHnHuMSOiyRQLu43ej2+mDWgItLZ48Mu0C3IG1seeQDjEYP tqvyZ6bGkf2Vj+L6wLoLLIhRZxQOedqArIk/Sb2SzQYuxN44IDRt+3ZcDqsPppoKcxSyd1Ny 2tpvjYJXlfKmOYLhTWs8nwlAlSHX/c/jz/ywwf7eSvGknToo1Y0VpRtoxMaKW1nvH0OeCSVJ itfRP7YbiRVc2aNqWPCSgtqHAuVraBRbAFLKh9d2rKFB3BmynTUpc1BQLJP8+D5oNyb8Ts4x Xd3iV/uD8JLGJfYZIR7oGWFLP4uZ3tkneDfYzsFNBFp+A0oBEAC9ynZI9LU+uJkMeEJeJyQ/ 8VFkCJQPQZEsIGzOTlPnwvVna0AS86n2Z+rK7R/usYs5iJCZ55/JISWd8xD57ue0eB47bcJv VqGlObI2DEG8TwaW0O0duRhDgzMEL4t1KdRAepIESBEA/iPpI4gfUbVEIEQuqdqQyO4GAe+M kD0Hy5JH/0qgFmbaSegNTdQg5iqYjRZ3ttiswalql1/iSyv1WYeC1OAs+2BLOAT2NEggSiVO txEfgewsQtCWi8H1SoirakIfo45Hz0tk/Ad9ZWh2PvOGt97Ka85o4TLJxgJJqGEnqcFUZnJJ riwoaRIS8N2C8/nEM53jb1sH0gYddMU3QxY7dYNLIUrRKQeNkF30dK7V6JRH7pleRlf+wQcN fRAIUrNlatj9TxwivQrKnC9aIFFHEy/0mAgtrQShcMRmMgVlRoOA5B8RTulRLCmkafvwuhs6 dCxN0GNAORIVVFxjx9Vn7OqYPgwiofZ6SbEl0hgPyWBQvE85klFLZLoj7p+joDY1XNQztmfA rnJ9x+YV4igjWImINAZSlmEcYtd+xy3Li/8oeYDAqrsnrOjb+WvGhCykJk4urBog2LNtcyCj kTs7F+WeXGUo0NDhbd3Z6AyFfqeF7uJ3D5hlpX2nI9no/ugPrrTVoVZAgrrnNz0iZG2DVx46 x913pVKHl5mlYQARAQABwsFfBBgBAgAJBQJafgNKAhsMAAoJELKItV//nCLBwNIP/AiIHE8b oIqReFQyaMzxq6lE4YZCZNj65B/nkDOvodSiwfwjjVVE2V3iEzxMHbgyTCGA67+Bo/d5aQGj gn0TPtsGzelyQHipaUzEyrsceUGWYoKXYyVWKEfyh0cDfnd9diAm3VeNqchtcMpoehETH8fr RHnJdBcjf112PzQSdKC6kqU0Q196c4Vp5HDOQfNiDnTf7gZSj0BraHOByy9LEDCLhQiCmr+2 E0rW4tBtDAn2HkT9uf32ZGqJCn1O+2uVfFhGu6vPE5qkqrbSE8TG+03H8ecU2q50zgHWPdHM OBvy3EhzfAh2VmOSTcRK+tSUe/u3wdLRDPwv/DTzGI36Kgky9MsDC5gpIwNbOJP2G/q1wT1o Gkw4IXfWv2ufWiXqJ+k7HEi2N1sree7Dy9KBCqb+ca1vFhYPDJfhP75I/VnzHVssZ/rYZ9+5 1yDoUABoNdJNSGUYl+Yh9Pw9pE3Kt4EFzUlFZWbE4xKL/NPno+z4J9aWemLLszcYz/u3XnbO vUSQHSrmfOzX3cV4yfmjM5lewgSstoxGyTx2M8enslgdXhPthZlDnTnOT+C+OTsh8+m5tos8 HQjaPM01MKBiAqdPgksm1wu2DrrwUi6ChRVTUBcj6+/9IJ81H2P2gJk3Ls3AVIxIffLoY34E +MYSfkEjBz0E8CLOcAw7JIwAaeBT In-Reply-To: <87qzw2shsd.fsf@alyssa.is> Content-Type: multipart/signed; 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boundary="------------LNxC4u0PnEnJwOWZHU6jplf9"; protected-headers="v1" From: Demi Marie Obenour To: Alyssa Ross Cc: Spectrum OS Development Message-ID: <1308db50-213a-4b16-a2fc-c9b9d456a314@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Sandboxing strategy References: <87o6ritk9q.fsf@alyssa.is> <37d4dc51-4ee1-4ccf-8d37-2272988b9361@gmail.com> <871po5z5df.fsf@alyssa.is> <88e28fdf-2d77-429f-8b4f-8cef4a997ed7@gmail.com> <87qzw2shsd.fsf@alyssa.is> In-Reply-To: <87qzw2shsd.fsf@alyssa.is> Autocrypt-Gossip: addr=hi@alyssa.is; keydata= xsFNBFpSgoYBEAC4xkCYidG2JlRWulUkTWcx0pHFDf3oSbb6Q872Kb3iDChWgluNVz43hva1 3xfDo9foV0GoyfGl/ycSCkXX5hlQr7ir/5FN38E7H/yY6tH8+l68iDgIOcb1qY0OYaxyg+Lz WesfFQedrmwNTbF4L1BtWzrTR5PflDdhDo5VWSguHGJFSclchcr/6UmMb/gOUN+2ElBC2TE2 EKY099phZ6DJZ2aZCsclwKIdCpZzXlEmXPAeaH5om6xo90JYv5+sFji40R0Plqec3WC+jTxy lGca6IbPdOminuUF+GvsR86eVsgh/0XNK7/zus7gyc4PuMUA1rCoeHcWOBDPgmelgCQyJGXd /bXeKuUsGoge58uc7/YNvOh1vfpD3AaEMqAyXfmmUwBnIicml74+2eOpH3Oljfs01g+DhkOB MtpVSZSgaIDvP0WG6cbAxImoUasnmNxEDNskfVmI8bsajPW9bt4z5hiP5Q9G3vE0D5HcIFdM adOz81PpOwNiUXcjtYV1PWZQ56jbSTOf8EBvsB71WwB+XgVWcPzIlY8hAykiHIO87oV3o71U JTAn1Foj7mjSADnY0deleOmar/K5jrK3wvKKM1XlB7PXcGBdkorJC+cbxVsw0ADzMw0c7bVc wEE7OFvHjQiIK1lO+lb1cvGBBY3IZxjsjZdA/VsFHFdAeYlzNQARAQABzRpBbHlzc2EgUm9z cyA8aGlAYWx5c3NhLmlzPsLBlwQTAQgAQQIbAwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAIZ ARYhBHVzVtd5u7iIdz5BXnNszfnvUb2XBQJoh9HmBQkOtoJgAAoJEHNszfnvUb2XFxAP/jF7 Rxuspytz7VwOA/y5WQe/FdPNRvyRUzj66ZzfuaG++md14LWcrvbb2hHLdS5ePdKoOaqC3xhK Ncy/5RVd4pD5N4AY7O5228JKDO8GGWEl3rupOCmYQL9P8GpsdGt2xkFqbu4HrFzMTzl6nvKN GtvhBSCkAW3v7wTwPf2rkjX8f+clmRZn4YLfojaBCT/ZFjmJkQSWZ+2rUZOxjgZgckLkplu8 LVILVdaHNLkOrxbKQLuuVyEkN+/YrshyJP4a7Z/Tnw+3eZcaLuLOxBHpWOAAgJZ8kL+V7BxK DlTywv/OOr0CoNi9zjH3VgRiJ1961K/DocjA50pWBilMUs4jGp9omhkAOwdNV2hi+Zj/GXaD kgvBlE313DGWzgW0RauL8j5/GULgphwm5UOHXb/5yM9pRw87kfQ/+zQuHpguoXSGkUv0kSID 88kUGlNxy1kkTsSYG2UTKLmLDPuUGOUDGaNUzD+J49MogSLTmvHUIYNs0jFmpLyhVoTtSi/I VQQpHyk9ucAZd2OLxChm3RBJhAbmGw3rhUxx6B8SHwcBcJDttGyYF2GZj9AYAGlU/Fm1Itoi NwJD0vQnSZ//25l+XJehpeeixsqydj00gksHWEFaIEgCYyC6JfmGS4HtuUcv76vc2vLCv5aH hJVHHKGs+kiKJ2+r7bCNwvW0doVePdByzjgEZyd/yxIKKwYBBAGXVQEFAQEHQCVxoiHOlsEo NDKGCbxg4nL3E1CV0MRQCU1hPowd77h3AwEIB8LBfAQYAQoAJgIbDBYhBHVzVtd5u7iIdz5B XnNszfnvUb2XBQJoh9HXBQkB4YUCAAoJEHNszfnvUb2XgvAP+gIIKR3KatmwuUcla1RN6tUc 0Ae9eqS1cbSEDj8a14fnvUHtlCEO5g4m2PvPn7L2o7047ppl5100+zGMocXWslnDFJJVeAOp xzlhZ48DFMxkZkjtLY2fRrj1tOtzrTRikV0/UsaVs9tMPMEsVu/FH0exMoNELcqEVUgcRRpd XYXC9zgDUcM4+JRH8hDOiC51JRvdkXcokAXphuCY3J996i8Ph+kg6xMqscePscvvltR68jcT HHDOiOQtzjJRKQ6BHUzYdIRixcq210sabfZGJVT+7BfHI5qiUwfoG3DXSJygviN3I/EfnSbD 6T0Ccv/G6wQPHO4Vyn+egrMOU/HUrCKuq/b0rYvI8pTtRWAxIHkFZoKVB8I8Rl8+riGiEUAh Ja0bU4iOg7vR5Bm8Gt/tR6KjClyBI5NN1M1haFgVXqZ3dsQDpBjivbDHbUsAXVsd00y0B4Ir 8muvII9eJOwbTyqcG9RJbflquPp+FPlgiy9pYj52PB0NwzLYqX0fOWU8IqQF3bWtdJIb4Zat XnfqYtJ/wCaJTU43N3+/TIdqNA4G3WbyRYsCnz/kkf1ARmxoq3r29dOl8OnNHEvB1+hBlNBk d+cLpsYdTxa63OpbNDpm/unX1sEpOYy04dL5Y8B1Xbh+rQFNySq4Ani2dl5N1OsrjgzZ+wkl k2wOTWzl7wFH --------------LNxC4u0PnEnJwOWZHU6jplf9 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------a8fx0xt8USL2h7070Buq7nH0" --------------a8fx0xt8USL2h7070Buq7nH0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/19/25 09:17, Alyssa Ross wrote: > Demi Marie Obenour writes: >=20 >> On 9/17/25 07:27, Alyssa Ross wrote: >>> Demi Marie Obenour writes: >>> >>>> On 9/10/25 11:11, Alyssa Ross wrote: >>>>> =E2=80=A2 These services are part of our TCB anyway. Sandboxing o= nly gets us >>>>> defense in depth. With that in mind, it's basically never going= to >>>>> be worth adding sandboxing if it adds any amount of attack surfa= ce. >>>>> One example of that would be user namespaces. They've been a >>>>> consistent source of kernel security issues, and it might be bet= ter >>>>> to turn them off entirely than to use them for sandboxing stuff >>>>> that's trusted anyway. >>>> >>>> Sandboxing virtiofsd is going to be really annoying and will definit= ely >>>> come at a performance cost. The most efficient way to use virtiofsd= >>>> is to give it CAP_DAC_READ_SEARCH in the initial user namespace and >>>> delegate _all_ access control to it. This allows virtiofs to use >>>> open_by_handle_at() for all filesystem access. Unfortunately, >>>> this also allows virtiofsd to open any file on the filesystem, ignor= ing >>>> all discretionary access control checks. I don't think Landlock wou= ld >>>> work either. SELinux or SMACK might work, but using them is >>>> significantly more complicated. >>>> >>>> If one wants to sandbox virtiofsd, one either needs to >>>> use --cache=3Dnever or run into an effective resource leak >>>> (https://gitlab.com/virtio-fs/virtiofsd/-/issues/194). >>>> My hope is that in the future the problem will be solved >>>> by DAX and an in-kernel shrinker that is aware of the host >>>> resources it is using. Denial of service would be prevented >>>> by cgroups on the host, addressing the objection mentioned >>>> in the issue comments. >>> >>> Do we not trust virtiofsd's built-in sandboxing? >> >> I do trust it, provided that it is verifiable (by dumping the state >> of the process at runtime). However, allowing unrestricted >> open_by_handle_at() allows opening any file on the system, conditioned= >> only on the filesystem supporting open_by_handle_at(). Therefore, >> sandboxing and using handles for all filesystem access are incompatibl= e. >=20 > Wouldn't it be limited to only files on the same filesystem, since you > have to pass a mount FD to open_by_handle_at()? It would, but I think that different mounts count as the same filesystem for this purpose. open_by_handle_at() in privileged mode bypasses the VFS layer and goes straight to the underlying filesystem driver. File handles have low enough entropy that they can be guessed. > That's still bad though. So then to start with we just want to make > sure it doesn't have CAP_DAC_READ_SEARCH, and then we hope that > something comes along to address the limitations of that? This is correct. There is already one idea for that, which is to cryptographically sign (and possibly encrypt) file handles so that one cannot guess them. This would ensure that one cannot get a a file handle without using name_to_handle_at(), which already does access checks. In the future, it might make sense for virtiofsd to talk to a userspace filesystem implementation. 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