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Tue, 29 Jul 2025 00:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5dfc8f55-43ba-40df-886c-4f372e91cbb7@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 03:48:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: Alyssa Ross , Spectrum OS Development References: <2f8aaac8-0407-41f8-86c1-caa5f8b2543e@gmail.com> <87pldnfeq8.fsf@alyssa.is> <87ikjbe9p8.fsf@alyssa.is> Content-Language: en-US From: Demi Marie Obenour Autocrypt: addr=demiobenour@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBFp+A0oBEADffj6anl9/BHhUSxGTICeVl2tob7hPDdhHNgPR4C8xlYt5q49yB+l2nipd aq+4Gk6FZfqC825TKl7eRpUjMriwle4r3R0ydSIGcy4M6eb0IcxmuPYfbWpr/si88QKgyGSV Z7GeNW1UnzTdhYHuFlk8dBSmB1fzhEYEk0RcJqg4AKoq6/3/UorR+FaSuVwT7rqzGrTlscnT DlPWgRzrQ3jssesI7sZLm82E3pJSgaUoCdCOlL7MMPCJwI8JpPlBedRpe9tfVyfu3euTPLPx wcV3L/cfWPGSL4PofBtB8NUU6QwYiQ9Hzx4xOyn67zW73/G0Q2vPPRst8LBDqlxLjbtx/WLR 6h3nBc3eyuZ+q62HS1pJ5EvUT1vjyJ1ySrqtUXWQ4XlZyoEFUfpJxJoN0A9HCxmHGVckzTRl 5FMWo8TCniHynNXsBtDQbabt7aNEOaAJdE7to0AH3T/Bvwzcp0ZJtBk0EM6YeMLtotUut7h2 Bkg1b//r6bTBswMBXVJ5H44Qf0+eKeUg7whSC9qpYOzzrm7+0r9F5u3qF8ZTx55TJc2g656C 9a1P1MYVysLvkLvS4H+crmxA/i08Tc1h+x9RRvqba4lSzZ6/Tmt60DPM5Sc4R0nSm9BBff0N m0bSNRS8InXdO1Aq3362QKX2NOwcL5YaStwODNyZUqF7izjK4QARAQABzTxEZW1pIE1hcmll IE9iZW5vdXIgKGxvdmVyIG9mIGNvZGluZykgPGRlbWlvYmVub3VyQGdtYWlsLmNvbT7CwXgE EwECACIFAlp+A0oCGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJELKItV//nCLBhr8Q AK/xrb4wyi71xII2hkFBpT59ObLN+32FQT7R3lbZRjVFjc6yMUjOb1H/hJVxx+yo5gsSj5LS 9AwggioUSrcUKldfA/PKKai2mzTlUDxTcF3vKx6iMXKA6AqwAw4B57ZEJoMM6egm57TV19kz PMc879NV2nc6+elaKl+/kbVeD3qvBuEwsTe2Do3HAAdrfUG/j9erwIk6gha/Hp9yZlCnPTX+ VK+xifQqt8RtMqS5R/S8z0msJMI/ajNU03kFjOpqrYziv6OZLJ5cuKb3bZU5aoaRQRDzkFIR 6aqtFLTohTo20QywXwRa39uFaOT/0YMpNyel0kdOszFOykTEGI2u+kja35g9TkH90kkBTG+a EWttIht0Hy6YFmwjcAxisSakBuHnHuMSOiyRQLu43ej2+mDWgItLZ48Mu0C3IG1seeQDjEYP tqvyZ6bGkf2Vj+L6wLoLLIhRZxQOedqArIk/Sb2SzQYuxN44IDRt+3ZcDqsPppoKcxSyd1Ny 2tpvjYJXlfKmOYLhTWs8nwlAlSHX/c/jz/ywwf7eSvGknToo1Y0VpRtoxMaKW1nvH0OeCSVJ itfRP7YbiRVc2aNqWPCSgtqHAuVraBRbAFLKh9d2rKFB3BmynTUpc1BQLJP8+D5oNyb8Ts4x Xd3iV/uD8JLGJfYZIR7oGWFLP4uZ3tkneDfYzsFNBFp+A0oBEAC9ynZI9LU+uJkMeEJeJyQ/ 8VFkCJQPQZEsIGzOTlPnwvVna0AS86n2Z+rK7R/usYs5iJCZ55/JISWd8xD57ue0eB47bcJv VqGlObI2DEG8TwaW0O0duRhDgzMEL4t1KdRAepIESBEA/iPpI4gfUbVEIEQuqdqQyO4GAe+M kD0Hy5JH/0qgFmbaSegNTdQg5iqYjRZ3ttiswalql1/iSyv1WYeC1OAs+2BLOAT2NEggSiVO txEfgewsQtCWi8H1SoirakIfo45Hz0tk/Ad9ZWh2PvOGt97Ka85o4TLJxgJJqGEnqcFUZnJJ riwoaRIS8N2C8/nEM53jb1sH0gYddMU3QxY7dYNLIUrRKQeNkF30dK7V6JRH7pleRlf+wQcN fRAIUrNlatj9TxwivQrKnC9aIFFHEy/0mAgtrQShcMRmMgVlRoOA5B8RTulRLCmkafvwuhs6 dCxN0GNAORIVVFxjx9Vn7OqYPgwiofZ6SbEl0hgPyWBQvE85klFLZLoj7p+joDY1XNQztmfA rnJ9x+YV4igjWImINAZSlmEcYtd+xy3Li/8oeYDAqrsnrOjb+WvGhCykJk4urBog2LNtcyCj kTs7F+WeXGUo0NDhbd3Z6AyFfqeF7uJ3D5hlpX2nI9no/ugPrrTVoVZAgrrnNz0iZG2DVx46 x913pVKHl5mlYQARAQABwsFfBBgBAgAJBQJafgNKAhsMAAoJELKItV//nCLBwNIP/AiIHE8b oIqReFQyaMzxq6lE4YZCZNj65B/nkDOvodSiwfwjjVVE2V3iEzxMHbgyTCGA67+Bo/d5aQGj gn0TPtsGzelyQHipaUzEyrsceUGWYoKXYyVWKEfyh0cDfnd9diAm3VeNqchtcMpoehETH8fr RHnJdBcjf112PzQSdKC6kqU0Q196c4Vp5HDOQfNiDnTf7gZSj0BraHOByy9LEDCLhQiCmr+2 E0rW4tBtDAn2HkT9uf32ZGqJCn1O+2uVfFhGu6vPE5qkqrbSE8TG+03H8ecU2q50zgHWPdHM OBvy3EhzfAh2VmOSTcRK+tSUe/u3wdLRDPwv/DTzGI36Kgky9MsDC5gpIwNbOJP2G/q1wT1o Gkw4IXfWv2ufWiXqJ+k7HEi2N1sree7Dy9KBCqb+ca1vFhYPDJfhP75I/VnzHVssZ/rYZ9+5 1yDoUABoNdJNSGUYl+Yh9Pw9pE3Kt4EFzUlFZWbE4xKL/NPno+z4J9aWemLLszcYz/u3XnbO vUSQHSrmfOzX3cV4yfmjM5lewgSstoxGyTx2M8enslgdXhPthZlDnTnOT+C+OTsh8+m5tos8 HQjaPM01MKBiAqdPgksm1wu2DrrwUi6ChRVTUBcj6+/9IJ81H2P2gJk3Ls3AVIxIffLoY34E +MYSfkEjBz0E8CLOcAw7JIwAaeBT Subject: Re: Switching to udev? In-Reply-To: <87ikjbe9p8.fsf@alyssa.is> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------VMU8fOvYkKWiUNLWEEh2tx97" Message-ID-Hash: DCJXC4E34SWP3XP35JQQWDHKGNSOLEUJ X-Message-ID-Hash: DCJXC4E34SWP3XP35JQQWDHKGNSOLEUJ X-MailFrom: demiobenour@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-0; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-1; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-2; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-3; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-4; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Patches and low-level development discussion Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------VMU8fOvYkKWiUNLWEEh2tx97 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------566MVnxc1bXLtSQ6JVUzkmNc"; protected-headers="v1" From: Demi Marie Obenour To: Alyssa Ross , Spectrum OS Development Message-ID: <5dfc8f55-43ba-40df-886c-4f372e91cbb7@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Switching to udev? References: <2f8aaac8-0407-41f8-86c1-caa5f8b2543e@gmail.com> <87pldnfeq8.fsf@alyssa.is> <87ikjbe9p8.fsf@alyssa.is> In-Reply-To: <87ikjbe9p8.fsf@alyssa.is> --------------566MVnxc1bXLtSQ6JVUzkmNc Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7zVHDdDzTPifN2xX35NuBskB" --------------7zVHDdDzTPifN2xX35NuBskB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/29/25 03:29, Alyssa Ross wrote: > Demi Marie Obenour writes: >=20 >> On 7/26/25 06:06, Alyssa Ross wrote: >>> Demi Marie Obenour writes: >>> >>>> On 7/23/25 13:34, Demi Marie Obenour wrote: >>>> From https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev: >>>> >>>> - udev is needed to load firmware for AMD Radeon GPUs. >>>> - libusb will not see USB devices unless deprecated kernel >>>> configuration options are set. >>>> >>>> From https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libinput/doc/latest/architectur= e.html: >>>> >>>> - Wayland compositors use udev (via libinput) to support >>>> device hotplugging. This is needed for USB keyboard >>>> and/or mouse support, which is a hard requirement for >>>> desktops that don't have PS/2 connectors (almost all of >>>> them I believe). >>>> - libinput relies on udev to determine what kind of device >>>> an input device is. >>>> >>>> FreeBSD also switched to udev for Mutter. >>>> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D271824#c4 >>>> states that for Wayland, udev is essentially required. Even >>>> Gentoo uses udev, though systemd is not the default init >>>> system. >>>> >>>> I think avoiding udev is a losing battle in the long run, >>>> except possibly for VMs that will never ever have physical >>>> hardware attached to them. That would require configuring >>>> VMs with and without physical hardware separately, which >>>> I would strongly prefer to avoid. If the memory >>>> consumption or disk space requirements of udev are >>>> excessive, I think this would be better addressed as part >>>> of a broader debloating effort. >>>> >>>> libudev-zero does exist, but it doesn't work with PipeWire >>>> (https://github.com/illiliti/libudev-zero/issues/26, still >>>> unfixed despite being closed) and there are other problems >>>> with it as shown by its issue tracker. Alpine's wiki doesn't >>>> recommend it for desktop environments, and while Spectrum VMs >>>> don't run full desktop environments they do run desktop >>>> software. Such software requires udev more and more nowadays. >>> >>> Broadly it seems like no libudev at all (which was never on the table= ) >>> is being conflated with not using udevd (but using something like >>> libudev-zero) here. To my knowledge, everything you've outlined shou= ld >>> work with libudev-zero, with the exception of PipeWire as you point o= ut, >>> and possibly Radeon firmware loading =E2=80=94 I'm very surprised ude= v would be >>> involved at all in that process so wondering if the wiki is very out = of >>> date or something. We have USB input working on the host using >>> libudev-zero, for example. >>> >>> The PipeWire compatibility problems do seem like blockers, but readin= g >>> the PipeWire issue about it[1], I'm not sure they're fundamental. It= >>> sounds like PipeWire might be willing to accomodate a fix, the last >>> activity on the issue was only a month ago, and it doesn't sound like= >>> that big of a change is necessary for it to work. I wouldn't be >>> surprised if PipeWire is among the software that has the most complex= >>> interaction patterns with udev, and given it might be on the verge of= >>> being fixed, I'd prefer to wait and see a bit longer. If that means >>> that we don't have working audio hotplug or whatever in the meantime,= >>> that's okay. I've put the PipeWire issue on the upstream bug trackin= g >>> board[2]. If months go by and no solution is found, I think it would= >>> make sense to evaluate switching to systemd-udevd then, but I don't w= ant >>> to do the switch, and then find a weak later that the only firm reaso= n >>> we had for doing it has been solved. If you know about other softwar= e >>> that depends on custom udev properties, and isn't on the verge of bei= ng >>> fixed like PipeWire is, or if I'm wrong about Radeon, we could also t= ake >>> that into account now, but so far all we know for sure is that PipeWi= re >>> doesn't work, but might do quite soon. >>> >>> [1]: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire/pipewire/-/issues/2398#n= ote_2897989 >>> [2]: https://cryptpad.fr/kanban/#/2/kanban/view/yLtGXWLV6U7X5+Z1ay+oX= KZMrSacqQe+51nXZYRh3ck/ >> >> I think libudev-zero can work fine in the VMs that have no physical >> hardware, especially with flatpaks that can't access udev at all. >> It's the host and VMs with physical hardware we don't have, and thus >> cannot test, that I am concerned about. systemd-udevd is much more >> likely to have gotten a patch from someone else to fix an issue we >> would never run into ourselves, and which might well cost us a user. >=20 > Does udev upstream quirk a lot of hardware, then? That wasn't mentione= d > so far. See https://github.com/systemd/systemd/tree/db1e099a7aed117e3ffdb1e4c69cf= 3e37cab0fc6/hwdb.d and the systemd issues that have the "hwdb" label. I'm not sure how much= of this is just for human-friendly names and how much of actually affects= behavior, but at least the input device quirks seem relevant. --=20 Sincerely, Demi Marie Obenour (she/her/hers) --------------7zVHDdDzTPifN2xX35NuBskB Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0xB288B55FFF9C22C1.asc" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0xB288B55FFF9C22C1.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP public key Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFp+A0oBEADffj6anl9/BHhUSxGTICeVl2tob7hPDdhHNgPR4C8xlYt5q49y B+l2nipdaq+4Gk6FZfqC825TKl7eRpUjMriwle4r3R0ydSIGcy4M6eb0IcxmuPYf bWpr/si88QKgyGSVZ7GeNW1UnzTdhYHuFlk8dBSmB1fzhEYEk0RcJqg4AKoq6/3/ UorR+FaSuVwT7rqzGrTlscnTDlPWgRzrQ3jssesI7sZLm82E3pJSgaUoCdCOlL7M MPCJwI8JpPlBedRpe9tfVyfu3euTPLPxwcV3L/cfWPGSL4PofBtB8NUU6QwYiQ9H zx4xOyn67zW73/G0Q2vPPRst8LBDqlxLjbtx/WLR6h3nBc3eyuZ+q62HS1pJ5EvU T1vjyJ1ySrqtUXWQ4XlZyoEFUfpJxJoN0A9HCxmHGVckzTRl5FMWo8TCniHynNXs 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Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEopQtqVJW1aeuo9/sszaHOrMp8lMFAmiIfLMACgkQszaHOrMp 8lMHFg//eOjdCppJeJqkElkuf9GQ2gtrcIcIk+agC7NJDVkBkp/wb3aS/jjlfq6f yhBS7ooHLIL4OYxSK7bZ1GfOHyqQ8RHAasKBlxSaaOiyMcjEQCe9Tqt/p5tD0Hdn dyyhnvPlqHGvuGnUDsxxtZ0rzrgXTMOKZ8cQ7FdGeJ7Yk+FJhvMFC7ONKbbYsB+Q Vdk+u93QQsAPMPrVM7/ixvlcba42LC7NQknu2yYOE5AM6B6Pw92ew46UN7PNb+Zw 7lborrFLik5ddlR3LP1AzhIUkQtS3LeGbMDBww8kEqhfbJeuPk5kknHPvGevrDiN AslWijxd5GKYQ+dpIiIpf3zwB3zewuIC4Q4ZdQpHWp8H+eMYKONafnFHtyjHANdU ZEqxJil6Df1NyCvX2cQjyHnZaP0VpMq8oAxXgrSDA0AnRqgAwFCRCmzhBTp/krRw AelUYn0eSQTNfsVrfGaBps/YKqCDgHJTFaTOj+Who4fA9qg3LRKx5+RJ2VX+YNTt Q/9w/emEhkNrziIiqstZ1Q+3M7mdwghO8Dz7lYmsWsdlB3tKQvaweLxkoPxiihdx qEuq6HEHROruZ7VFnxp60e/deZmX4rqBTkmpDgQvj3YO5a8r+zBhcfo5Y4UIJV2V P4NE8a6eGFdTpNLC5hjeFvKRYxBwgKcB6skLabQzBi+9vPuqb8E= =bqoQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------VMU8fOvYkKWiUNLWEEh2tx97--