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Wed, 09 Jul 2025 12:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <67378956-e1dd-4d7f-9b66-97887b625936@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 15:48:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: Nicolas Dufresne , Albert Esteve , virtio-comment@lists.linux.dev References: <20250709093456.350242-1-aesteve@redhat.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Demi Marie Obenour Autocrypt: addr=demiobenour@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBFp+A0oBEADffj6anl9/BHhUSxGTICeVl2tob7hPDdhHNgPR4C8xlYt5q49yB+l2nipd aq+4Gk6FZfqC825TKl7eRpUjMriwle4r3R0ydSIGcy4M6eb0IcxmuPYfbWpr/si88QKgyGSV Z7GeNW1UnzTdhYHuFlk8dBSmB1fzhEYEk0RcJqg4AKoq6/3/UorR+FaSuVwT7rqzGrTlscnT DlPWgRzrQ3jssesI7sZLm82E3pJSgaUoCdCOlL7MMPCJwI8JpPlBedRpe9tfVyfu3euTPLPx wcV3L/cfWPGSL4PofBtB8NUU6QwYiQ9Hzx4xOyn67zW73/G0Q2vPPRst8LBDqlxLjbtx/WLR 6h3nBc3eyuZ+q62HS1pJ5EvUT1vjyJ1ySrqtUXWQ4XlZyoEFUfpJxJoN0A9HCxmHGVckzTRl 5FMWo8TCniHynNXsBtDQbabt7aNEOaAJdE7to0AH3T/Bvwzcp0ZJtBk0EM6YeMLtotUut7h2 Bkg1b//r6bTBswMBXVJ5H44Qf0+eKeUg7whSC9qpYOzzrm7+0r9F5u3qF8ZTx55TJc2g656C 9a1P1MYVysLvkLvS4H+crmxA/i08Tc1h+x9RRvqba4lSzZ6/Tmt60DPM5Sc4R0nSm9BBff0N m0bSNRS8InXdO1Aq3362QKX2NOwcL5YaStwODNyZUqF7izjK4QARAQABzTxEZW1pIE1hcmll IE9iZW5vdXIgKGxvdmVyIG9mIGNvZGluZykgPGRlbWlvYmVub3VyQGdtYWlsLmNvbT7CwXgE EwECACIFAlp+A0oCGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJELKItV//nCLBhr8Q AK/xrb4wyi71xII2hkFBpT59ObLN+32FQT7R3lbZRjVFjc6yMUjOb1H/hJVxx+yo5gsSj5LS 9AwggioUSrcUKldfA/PKKai2mzTlUDxTcF3vKx6iMXKA6AqwAw4B57ZEJoMM6egm57TV19kz PMc879NV2nc6+elaKl+/kbVeD3qvBuEwsTe2Do3HAAdrfUG/j9erwIk6gha/Hp9yZlCnPTX+ VK+xifQqt8RtMqS5R/S8z0msJMI/ajNU03kFjOpqrYziv6OZLJ5cuKb3bZU5aoaRQRDzkFIR 6aqtFLTohTo20QywXwRa39uFaOT/0YMpNyel0kdOszFOykTEGI2u+kja35g9TkH90kkBTG+a EWttIht0Hy6YFmwjcAxisSakBuHnHuMSOiyRQLu43ej2+mDWgItLZ48Mu0C3IG1seeQDjEYP tqvyZ6bGkf2Vj+L6wLoLLIhRZxQOedqArIk/Sb2SzQYuxN44IDRt+3ZcDqsPppoKcxSyd1Ny 2tpvjYJXlfKmOYLhTWs8nwlAlSHX/c/jz/ywwf7eSvGknToo1Y0VpRtoxMaKW1nvH0OeCSVJ itfRP7YbiRVc2aNqWPCSgtqHAuVraBRbAFLKh9d2rKFB3BmynTUpc1BQLJP8+D5oNyb8Ts4x Xd3iV/uD8JLGJfYZIR7oGWFLP4uZ3tkneDfYzsFNBFp+A0oBEAC9ynZI9LU+uJkMeEJeJyQ/ 8VFkCJQPQZEsIGzOTlPnwvVna0AS86n2Z+rK7R/usYs5iJCZ55/JISWd8xD57ue0eB47bcJv VqGlObI2DEG8TwaW0O0duRhDgzMEL4t1KdRAepIESBEA/iPpI4gfUbVEIEQuqdqQyO4GAe+M kD0Hy5JH/0qgFmbaSegNTdQg5iqYjRZ3ttiswalql1/iSyv1WYeC1OAs+2BLOAT2NEggSiVO txEfgewsQtCWi8H1SoirakIfo45Hz0tk/Ad9ZWh2PvOGt97Ka85o4TLJxgJJqGEnqcFUZnJJ riwoaRIS8N2C8/nEM53jb1sH0gYddMU3QxY7dYNLIUrRKQeNkF30dK7V6JRH7pleRlf+wQcN fRAIUrNlatj9TxwivQrKnC9aIFFHEy/0mAgtrQShcMRmMgVlRoOA5B8RTulRLCmkafvwuhs6 dCxN0GNAORIVVFxjx9Vn7OqYPgwiofZ6SbEl0hgPyWBQvE85klFLZLoj7p+joDY1XNQztmfA rnJ9x+YV4igjWImINAZSlmEcYtd+xy3Li/8oeYDAqrsnrOjb+WvGhCykJk4urBog2LNtcyCj kTs7F+WeXGUo0NDhbd3Z6AyFfqeF7uJ3D5hlpX2nI9no/ugPrrTVoVZAgrrnNz0iZG2DVx46 x913pVKHl5mlYQARAQABwsFfBBgBAgAJBQJafgNKAhsMAAoJELKItV//nCLBwNIP/AiIHE8b oIqReFQyaMzxq6lE4YZCZNj65B/nkDOvodSiwfwjjVVE2V3iEzxMHbgyTCGA67+Bo/d5aQGj gn0TPtsGzelyQHipaUzEyrsceUGWYoKXYyVWKEfyh0cDfnd9diAm3VeNqchtcMpoehETH8fr RHnJdBcjf112PzQSdKC6kqU0Q196c4Vp5HDOQfNiDnTf7gZSj0BraHOByy9LEDCLhQiCmr+2 E0rW4tBtDAn2HkT9uf32ZGqJCn1O+2uVfFhGu6vPE5qkqrbSE8TG+03H8ecU2q50zgHWPdHM OBvy3EhzfAh2VmOSTcRK+tSUe/u3wdLRDPwv/DTzGI36Kgky9MsDC5gpIwNbOJP2G/q1wT1o Gkw4IXfWv2ufWiXqJ+k7HEi2N1sree7Dy9KBCqb+ca1vFhYPDJfhP75I/VnzHVssZ/rYZ9+5 1yDoUABoNdJNSGUYl+Yh9Pw9pE3Kt4EFzUlFZWbE4xKL/NPno+z4J9aWemLLszcYz/u3XnbO vUSQHSrmfOzX3cV4yfmjM5lewgSstoxGyTx2M8enslgdXhPthZlDnTnOT+C+OTsh8+m5tos8 HQjaPM01MKBiAqdPgksm1wu2DrrwUi6ChRVTUBcj6+/9IJ81H2P2gJk3Ls3AVIxIffLoY34E +MYSfkEjBz0E8CLOcAw7JIwAaeBT Subject: Re: [PATCH v9 0/1] virtio-media: Add device specification In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------2yHig4W7k91MJfxs4L8rDBw0" Message-ID-Hash: 2PE2EVPW3XNNRHMONLPPKWUSCJ3I4JD3 X-Message-ID-Hash: 2PE2EVPW3XNNRHMONLPPKWUSCJ3I4JD3 X-MailFrom: demiobenour@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-0; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-1; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-2; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-3; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-4; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: ribalda@google.com, alex.bennee@linaro.org, adelva@google.com, cohuck@redhat.com, mvaralar@redhat.com, hverkuil@xs4all.nl, gurchetansingh@google.com, daniel.almeida@collabora.com, changyeon@google.com, acourbot@google.com, mst@redhat.com, eballetb@redhat.com, agordeev@qti.qualcomm.com, gnurou@gmail.com, dverkamp@chromium.org, Spectrum OS Development , Alyssa Ross X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Patches and low-level development discussion Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------2yHig4W7k91MJfxs4L8rDBw0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7RYCKgzm9POVdATS2BfWtAkR"; protected-headers="v1" From: Demi Marie Obenour To: Nicolas Dufresne , Albert Esteve , virtio-comment@lists.linux.dev Cc: ribalda@google.com, alex.bennee@linaro.org, adelva@google.com, cohuck@redhat.com, mvaralar@redhat.com, hverkuil@xs4all.nl, gurchetansingh@google.com, daniel.almeida@collabora.com, changyeon@google.com, acourbot@google.com, mst@redhat.com, eballetb@redhat.com, agordeev@qti.qualcomm.com, gnurou@gmail.com, dverkamp@chromium.org, Spectrum OS Development , Alyssa Ross Message-ID: <67378956-e1dd-4d7f-9b66-97887b625936@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [PATCH v9 0/1] virtio-media: Add device specification References: <20250709093456.350242-1-aesteve@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: --------------7RYCKgzm9POVdATS2BfWtAkR Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------ijSFhXnrS6ZiSF0iiDVk3o4B" --------------ijSFhXnrS6ZiSF0iiDVk3o4B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/9/25 13:58, Nicolas Dufresne wrote: > Hi Demi, >=20 > Le mercredi 09 juillet 2025 =C3=A0 13:26 -0400, Demi Marie Obenour a =C3= =A9crit=C2=A0: >> On 7/9/25 05:34, Albert Esteve wrote: >>> > [...] >=20 >> >> It's probably too late, but I have some serious concerns about this >> device.=C2=A0 Specifically: >> >> 1. I don't see a reasonable way to support untrusted virtio-media >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 devices.=C2=A0 v4l2 has too many ioctls and I can't reali= stically >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 see a way to enforce that the return values from all of t= hem >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 are consistent with each other.=C2=A0 It is possible to o= nly allow >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 a fixed format (such as uncompressed ARGB) and only allow= the >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 video source and/or sink to provide resolutions and frame= rates, >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 but this means losing a lot of performance and abandoning= any >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 attempt at zero-copy. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 The use-case for untrusted virtio-media devices is not >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 confidential computing, but rather disaggregated systems = where >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 video sources (like webcams) may be attached to untrusted= virtual >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 machines. >=20 > Please consider that you are posting broadly and understanding of what = you mean > by untrusted virtio-media can be difficult for non-virtio devs like me.= My use-case is this: 1. There is a VM that has all USB devices. 2. Some of those USB devices, like untrusted webcams, may be passed through to another VM via usbip. 3. The VM with the usbip device provides a video device to yet another VM= =2E The VM with the webcam and the VM receiving the video stream do not trust= each other. > With the enclosed information, I believe implementer are not forced to = map to a > host V4L2 driver. You can implement a userspace layer in between, and p= ossibly > even implement reclaiming by simulation some hot-unplug of the devices,= or by > not scheduling any work for M2M. I expect that any implementation that cares about security is going to do= this. > I don't really see the relation between "trust" and the pixel format se= lection. > Nor why preventing zero-copy would help handling untrusted virtual mach= ines. I > do believe you should not attempt this if you don't have the required k= nowledge > though, as its unlikely the end-result will be safe. How can I validate the various parameters provided by a backend? > For me the main issue for untrusted VM is the lack of control measure, = such as > cgroup for resource usage. This is being worked on though, Maxime Ripar= d have > given an update at the Linux Media Summit in Nice. Denial of service is not a concern in my use-cases. >> 2. v4l2 is a chatty protocol and using it implies a lot of >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 guest <=3D> host round-trips.=C2=A0 This is bad for perfo= rmance. >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Is this overhead actually significant, and if so, are the= re >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 plans to reduce it? >=20 > You should try and demonstrate this. Virtio Video tried to make their o= wn and > endup with something kind of similar with about the same level of back = and > forth. We already had few concerns with ioctl() overhead, and some meas= ure have > been implemented, notably s_ctrl_ext. I'll leave this for later. --=20 Sincerely, Demi Marie Obenour (she/her/hers) --------------ijSFhXnrS6ZiSF0iiDVk3o4B Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0xB288B55FFF9C22C1.asc" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0xB288B55FFF9C22C1.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP public key Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFp+A0oBEADffj6anl9/BHhUSxGTICeVl2tob7hPDdhHNgPR4C8xlYt5q49y B+l2nipdaq+4Gk6FZfqC825TKl7eRpUjMriwle4r3R0ydSIGcy4M6eb0IcxmuPYf bWpr/si88QKgyGSVZ7GeNW1UnzTdhYHuFlk8dBSmB1fzhEYEk0RcJqg4AKoq6/3/ UorR+FaSuVwT7rqzGrTlscnTDlPWgRzrQ3jssesI7sZLm82E3pJSgaUoCdCOlL7M MPCJwI8JpPlBedRpe9tfVyfu3euTPLPxwcV3L/cfWPGSL4PofBtB8NUU6QwYiQ9H zx4xOyn67zW73/G0Q2vPPRst8LBDqlxLjbtx/WLR6h3nBc3eyuZ+q62HS1pJ5EvU T1vjyJ1ySrqtUXWQ4XlZyoEFUfpJxJoN0A9HCxmHGVckzTRl5FMWo8TCniHynNXs BtDQbabt7aNEOaAJdE7to0AH3T/Bvwzcp0ZJtBk0EM6YeMLtotUut7h2Bkg1b//r 6bTBswMBXVJ5H44Qf0+eKeUg7whSC9qpYOzzrm7+0r9F5u3qF8ZTx55TJc2g656C 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