From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from atuin.qyliss.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by atuin.qyliss.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8924A4FB; Fri, 19 Jun 2026 14:54:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: by atuin.qyliss.net (Postfix, from userid 993) id DCDD2A52C; Fri, 19 Jun 2026 14:54:39 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.1 (2024-03-26) on atuin.qyliss.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=3.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,DMARC_MISSING,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,SPF_HELO_PASS autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=4.0.1 Received: from fout-b7-smtp.messagingengine.com (fout-b7-smtp.messagingengine.com [202.12.124.150]) by atuin.qyliss.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E45AA4F2 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2026 14:54:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from phl-compute-03.internal (phl-compute-03.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailfout.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BCE71D000F7; Fri, 19 Jun 2026 10:54:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-frontend-03 ([10.202.2.162]) by phl-compute-03.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 19 Jun 2026 10:54:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alyssa.is; h=cc :cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject :subject:to:to; s=fm3; t=1781880876; x=1781967276; bh=Lolg2wkgty tAUMds9GLlDz4cc54PM3pfy1vVWYlnrzw=; b=fvcIE9BaJD4t2WumnJ+loNR7/V Rfp/n7i7JrRNpdnZ2t7+V1vBhP+dqi2t9b4QrIzQRmUnMJWI99bseLmsXNj/JTWE vQ9xZAFu1AZ3an4IiaAEHX3RHyDmOGR9ynPKivu0osurtM+ors2juZDVT1zrSJuJ 67aoi1AO6chtpTtW1VrSrhxVl6q2MS4GaL17iW1iVyp6aolaJIJ7P8hoPKS5eWMA xPuvMzcf5kSBAkB5EiymASSQ93vYJVHz/p4hecnMvTiz4MSH14UShL1J6TbOK+rh JddXpZr0iQP9Punf0a7wMz5LycreJ62jyAge1Gwt/myMIOzsSOKAKH7uUWsQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject:subject:to :to:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t= 1781880876; x=1781967276; bh=Lolg2wkgtytAUMds9GLlDz4cc54PM3pfy1v VWYlnrzw=; b=brTuhmWpP8vvGRCaaoOv6GKXU3e0jXaQoTQIYP1AZk3gQMBuHli aufSdRU0xAJJdeF3H1tMQaerurW5nggP97dkGs3nHLokhHrRCxwL0npK9HYEWROw EgQJrfwLWRpy9+EXkbv8ifgm2lWR95MOVcKJgqQdsPxFzhb2cEZrS8OWNImivVoB mf7ORQ2OFW/bF9C8a7ltLC/ZpiH943BS9GvRLntk8FWDzSfm8xKBsPWyNpLMeEJl egw/0KFTXpZBnJtxppmJ8RKQcYgnrcH2FKQuZpG1Yt2Od74ouUv5294/+qzAgbQy gdrb1mXVzrUOyornP8y/vxtKBG1P5ZBtRhA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: dmFkZTEa8eUac4J2IEDoAHaJJxfnN+Spn9kucwbuDkE1k97HPfyx/hZteaKaegfJ4eeMi2 1mWWuoT9qK4oU2BODj0B95BywqtFPYV7O68DHqWXK7kevXvCbJ8TLFMHQGS7tzldpbW9oo daYHXH6C3BY2PrDE7f4428iSHOnJNIyqqibv4PRerNNJlO0MFUMAe0yxdt1TgUBwcEecXL 1FBtY9fFyzHSR58HEUdiwfXYxVqxDMnE1t9hvZ9TQX23lcWqGrmxCNQp/iFfgDBCC+LhQM ZSUoC6JTeJVKl1KN5L0x+6vg5f0xV3z62kyGXRVUR8HguIDoNDRhQiaZNxBShQPNWhzUDi CL3U7tiE/WnP6BCKGIIDvMxd/VOoflGfF5WkD394XAwX0jlkBg3bJXdFjzgFMD75+elJ8K 59hReH17AvywouyZDgjoqLgN4ytclCIvCcd4+DpY+23E2ol1koN9msYznhqdC7AmlsBmA5 4dYXxUjS7LxI3tLyaYoz7xaWEXxXERsWb58myF0Lz0vKvyKlzNFeV8Fr5d6FwAYTSIunaP AUh7o1nvrP8i3r9WS4bbBoyA+aYx2tz3TD7cR3+Fkv3VreJ7eX07YdMm7vuH29oqhEByXk WPCLOpJScNxgVYPAgUU+lrpVrJ3AWLni6PEYTMdT7y8TlCy8UuXYvWOZR8RQ X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i12284293:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 19 Jun 2026 10:54:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mbp.qyliss.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CD822825C995; Fri, 19 Jun 2026 16:54:33 +0200 (CEST) From: Alyssa Ross To: Valentin Gagarin Subject: Re: [PATCH] Documentation: reword the distinctive feature of shared state In-Reply-To: References: <20260617132414.103828-1-valentin@gagarin.work> <87o6h9p0mk.fsf@alyssa.is> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2026 16:54:26 +0200 Message-ID: <87a4sqa8d9.fsf@alyssa.is> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Message-ID-Hash: KSBQEXM6GYQLNU5EHZ7O6G4KFFPUJ5M2 X-Message-ID-Hash: KSBQEXM6GYQLNU5EHZ7O6G4KFFPUJ5M2 X-MailFrom: hi@alyssa.is X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-0; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-1; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-2; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-3; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-4; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: devel@spectrum-os.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list List-Id: Patches and low-level development discussion Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Valentin Gagarin writes: >>> - s/backed up and// >>> >>> The difficulty of backing up is a specific instance of the >>> fragmentation problem. But this is likely only evident to Qubes >>> users. We can expect most readers to know about it theoretically at >>> best. While it's not wrong to have this sort of anchor, keeping it >>> risks diluting the main message. >>=20 >> I'm concerned that removing the more specific verbs here might make it >> more difficult to understand /why/ treating the system as a whole is >> desirable. We don't have to be so specific as to call out backups or >> management, but I think without talking about something more specific, >> even if that's just "thinking", as in "one only needs to think about a >> single system", it loses its motivation. > > Yes, what we're trying to convey here feels tricky to get right. Not=20 > sure "thinking of" is more specific than "treating", but maybe it better= =20 > gets across a sentiment of "conceptualising" (in the sense of: mentally=20 > grasping). In my drafting I was mainly focused on the interaction with=20 > the system, since I came from the original which worked with examples of= =20 > handling the system and thus *implied* some thinking. Maybe thinking is= =20 > just the right thing. At least this sounds perfectly fine to me: > > This means that the system can be thought of as a whole, rather than > many virtual machines each becoming a system of its own. > > One could argue that thinking about a system is a very specific=20 > interaction we perform very often... > > Feel free to fix it up like that, otherwise I'll give it another round=20 > of ideas. Thinking about it some more, I wonder if maybe my emphasis on verbs was misplaced. The underlying thing I wanted to communicate is the feeling, and I was relying on the verbs to connote those feelings to the reader. The relevant feelings here are "burdened" and "overwhelmed". Perhaps there's a better way to get those across, either directly or indirectly. What do you think? --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYKAB0WIQRV/neXydHjZma5XLJbRZGEIw/wogUCajVYIgAKCRBbRZGEIw/w opEsAQCQFCOwD2khse3skXoUy/6uEX12YOTT5TLNhx300m2auAEA2j0wPHVdbvcb 4yIFawres64mhqOMrqmG9AL4kw9ojgA= =HtIT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--