From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from atuin.qyliss.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by atuin.qyliss.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2948299B6; Wed, 17 Jun 2026 16:55:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: by atuin.qyliss.net (Postfix, from userid 993) id B66E49996; Wed, 17 Jun 2026 16:55:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.1 (2024-03-26) on atuin.qyliss.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=3.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,DMARC_MISSING,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,SPF_HELO_PASS autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=4.0.1 Received: from fout-a1-smtp.messagingengine.com (fout-a1-smtp.messagingengine.com [103.168.172.144]) by atuin.qyliss.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26A999930 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2026 16:55:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from phl-compute-02.internal (phl-compute-02.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailfout.phl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E96BEC008B; Wed, 17 Jun 2026 12:55:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-frontend-04 ([10.202.2.163]) by phl-compute-02.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 17 Jun 2026 12:55:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alyssa.is; h=cc :cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject :subject:to:to; s=fm3; t=1781715351; x=1781801751; bh=Kuhj9WrrQe Wj9cDyyqGe+KlriRkZK+HBDhLhe7gsbJ0=; b=ZArCxe6p6B3OX7oVQvGBfvrGVO a5ssdfJjjrt20fsNcLWoOI7969tfvlK4hfUFQPiDIAWQpJp9pV1TfXJPso2bZ9nu jtOkk59VpnXFmoK66SEwbcO5W/LuIIGAMUYXIKBOA9Lwo/UK0JV8HUbE7hzTXFw2 Q+iHEIdgmGKaOylI1RLmTW1aCfBAJCP3laCpG29JuIKH7MnQC+ijSedliLAu/Sao EiljmMVIgJcVeoVOigt79xjBezyR6/KK1FYDMgeQToC+z+tJXeSLmwFO+Zw419+O iT9DYfsqHZdd8Rl4o+HtuOC5qBX7bsSS89nUqcnD30z1dMvAYwSHOJm4OK0A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject:subject:to :to:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t= 1781715351; x=1781801751; bh=Kuhj9WrrQeWj9cDyyqGe+KlriRkZK+HBDhL he7gsbJ0=; b=Gu1jeH7fDkDTGERisfqWmNwqb2E2zpVLt3e1ZSOre6vU2n3hvGm G7w3vf32LW3a2174exykIJqUJAqgzba2KiWCZEfWSipM0W7L1u5P/uc3HvJIfgge 0MEzXWyy2bINizySQFekEZyGoHvCJDqyXhezTG03liM99sNt1Y4FJPdzm/Ke0hHU vvJXPewfr9WdZSilzpvNTEKJ/OADXWXFK70RdfjjkqqyWaSmPd46Szm69hu/heGV neFKiJK1NerVJbvjVRFiyilndFiDKlk63HyNksWJDKWYYfGb0yJOtY1/t83klp21 MPeFtgpgX4x7J9vcnj8gBjjHsk6EqZbYqkw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: dmFkZTFSKrQm6vzeUcxSbFdiXGJ1UX8ZAuesdYfadYqHEyZj1e2v44+ywzXiulAYBNpiRr DZyE5YDvneFvyn0UVnjJvtrKNg4RB6CV19P/Cm8xf46qBOPmahlicMUuB1Hw6qHM0mA6sP UQKETLKZ/prW1H7W3h6k5Eh5oyxcJxZd5Kxef0/tm+Os5p8so1P8xevuiSRhNZ0R9I8j5A Wup3zd3fQI08wkjzjm7YcvlMiKFCyXYBR/t96KS7IRyi8L6UddfPVoGQevjET/499vbj3L 9qY7IMLgtVw9aEx+k/X/1YATpHXLKJZzrqS/goF7F4TZfXAo87D6V2sxa5iHDWoHvti0Sh OW9d3+YpzbCVjw65vPfkGzpknT3qnEdYKFcUHI1Ge6/LwwOtLf2/E82Tz6S76IMiOtSCQb YGofXPSKQP/ZqsI8kBJKUmoBBmpFd+3+2wPmUGwqRzALMN+JBZPhcgRoM4xf2gBncx1P6l f0aW+CSUD6DkRUHiN/sV6xxIMq2pIM/muqkBCCt+sqqtM/kXH2r5mDIvL7LUo+IF+r9Zau PxpSxHw3fEqyPrcBEHffhAbLUnRMqF3gUhlt5yGzA7hjtqMAJqJ3iQnm9OksMy/bRk03rG HzUwXKDWwwlS3Xc2q2DomuWFLUSRw4FvJorvjyi+LIM5DQZughnRj+nmwI/A X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i12284293:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 17 Jun 2026 12:55:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by fw12.qyliss.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 82B29B6AC3FE; Wed, 17 Jun 2026 18:55:48 +0200 (CEST) From: Alyssa Ross To: Valentin Gagarin Subject: Re: [PATCH] Documentation: reword the distinctive feature of shared state In-Reply-To: <20260617132414.103828-1-valentin@gagarin.work> References: <20260617132414.103828-1-valentin@gagarin.work> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2026 18:55:47 +0200 Message-ID: <87o6h9p0mk.fsf@alyssa.is> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Message-ID-Hash: S2EAQKZ4HYYQHROW6D6YDGQEYTQGTWUE X-Message-ID-Hash: S2EAQKZ4HYYQHROW6D6YDGQEYTQGTWUE X-MailFrom: hi@alyssa.is X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-0; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-1; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-2; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-3; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-4; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: devel@spectrum-os.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list List-Id: Patches and low-level development discussion Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Valentin Gagarin writes: > This changes front-page wording in load-bearing ways, for reasons that > may be non-obvious: Wow, I love the explanation/diff ratio here! > - Split into shorter sentences > > Each one is focused on describing a separate idea. The second idea is > more complex and warrants more words, so having a dedicated sentence > avoids losing the reader. > > - s/several dozen/many/ > > The particular number doesn't matter, and may be arbitrarily wrong in > practice. The point is that there's fragmentation. The snark about > any large number is unnecessary if we put the real problem in the > foreground. > > - s/mixed up in// > > It could be that entanglement is an issue, but fragmentation seems to > be the bigger issue. In any case, the original sentence was awkward > grammatically, because it tried putting together how a system is > handled with what the system is like. > > - s/managed as a whole/still treated as a whole/ > > We're already saying "managed" in the first sentence. Managing > the system is very different from managing state. We need to be > careful with using words without prior definitions, so the best we can > do here is avoid inadvertent conflation. There is enough potential > for confusion as it is. > > "still" acknowledges the traditional single-system experience that > Spectrum preserves by design. The "still" appears to have got lost from the actual diff. Should I put it back in? > - s/backed up and// > > The difficulty of backing up is a specific instance of the > fragmentation problem. But this is likely only evident to Qubes > users. We can expect most readers to know about it theoretically at > best. While it's not wrong to have this sort of anchor, keeping it > risks diluting the main message. I'm concerned that removing the more specific verbs here might make it more difficult to understand /why/ treating the system as a whole is desirable. We don't have to be so specific as to call out backups or management, but I think without talking about something more specific, even if that's just "thinking", as in "one only needs to think about a single system", it loses its motivation. > - "each becoming a system of its own" > > This captures the Qubes failure mode Spectrum avoids, where per-VM state > accumulation forces operators into what amounts to orchestrating > a cluster on one's desktop. > > In the original, the contrast to Qubes would not be as strong for > people only familiar with it superficially. Being more explicit about > the nature of the problem helps establishing the narrative frame and > original motivation of Spectrum early on, part of which is overcoming > Qubes limitations. Missing Signed-off-by. > --- > Documentation/index.html | 6 +++--- > 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-) > > diff --git a/Documentation/index.html b/Documentation/index.html > index 6d6faf7..0ea0a2f 100644 > --- a/Documentation/index.html > +++ b/Documentation/index.html > @@ -23,9 +23,9 @@ such systems. >=20=20 >

> User data and application state will be managed centrally, while > -remaining isolated, meaning that the system can be backed up and > -managed as a whole, rather than mixed up in several dozen virtual > -machines. > +remaining isolated. This means that the system can be > +treated as a whole, rather than many virtual > +machines each becoming a system of its own. >=20=20 >

> Spectrum is an upstream-first project. Wherever possible, we aim to > --=20 > 2.54.0 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYKAB0WIQQGoGac7QfI+H5ZtFCZddwkt31pFQUCajLRkwAKCRCZddwkt31p FfLOAQDtXzBrgtx7dW+aHQ5+aiUkI4Z3RbZzdGphePOvBc71pgD+NGdMNQbQPmmw kuynfGkNlFf2+sLg/GpiRwr4adqG0wU= =zxo3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--