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[96.60.249.169]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 3f1490d57ef6-e951dc73d53sm363082276.24.2025.08.21.21.41.26 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 21 Aug 2025 21:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8b76fb46-a04c-438e-9ff5-e3153ae6f53e@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 00:41:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Spectrum OS management daemon? To: Alyssa Ross , Spectrum OS Development References: <157e2b88-c292-419a-b5cd-0735d1f78a59@gmail.com> <87y0rdt16v.fsf@alyssa.is> Content-Language: en-US From: Demi Marie Obenour Autocrypt: addr=demiobenour@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBFp+A0oBEADffj6anl9/BHhUSxGTICeVl2tob7hPDdhHNgPR4C8xlYt5q49yB+l2nipd aq+4Gk6FZfqC825TKl7eRpUjMriwle4r3R0ydSIGcy4M6eb0IcxmuPYfbWpr/si88QKgyGSV Z7GeNW1UnzTdhYHuFlk8dBSmB1fzhEYEk0RcJqg4AKoq6/3/UorR+FaSuVwT7rqzGrTlscnT DlPWgRzrQ3jssesI7sZLm82E3pJSgaUoCdCOlL7MMPCJwI8JpPlBedRpe9tfVyfu3euTPLPx wcV3L/cfWPGSL4PofBtB8NUU6QwYiQ9Hzx4xOyn67zW73/G0Q2vPPRst8LBDqlxLjbtx/WLR 6h3nBc3eyuZ+q62HS1pJ5EvUT1vjyJ1ySrqtUXWQ4XlZyoEFUfpJxJoN0A9HCxmHGVckzTRl 5FMWo8TCniHynNXsBtDQbabt7aNEOaAJdE7to0AH3T/Bvwzcp0ZJtBk0EM6YeMLtotUut7h2 Bkg1b//r6bTBswMBXVJ5H44Qf0+eKeUg7whSC9qpYOzzrm7+0r9F5u3qF8ZTx55TJc2g656C 9a1P1MYVysLvkLvS4H+crmxA/i08Tc1h+x9RRvqba4lSzZ6/Tmt60DPM5Sc4R0nSm9BBff0N m0bSNRS8InXdO1Aq3362QKX2NOwcL5YaStwODNyZUqF7izjK4QARAQABzTxEZW1pIE1hcmll IE9iZW5vdXIgKGxvdmVyIG9mIGNvZGluZykgPGRlbWlvYmVub3VyQGdtYWlsLmNvbT7CwXgE EwECACIFAlp+A0oCGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJELKItV//nCLBhr8Q AK/xrb4wyi71xII2hkFBpT59ObLN+32FQT7R3lbZRjVFjc6yMUjOb1H/hJVxx+yo5gsSj5LS 9AwggioUSrcUKldfA/PKKai2mzTlUDxTcF3vKx6iMXKA6AqwAw4B57ZEJoMM6egm57TV19kz PMc879NV2nc6+elaKl+/kbVeD3qvBuEwsTe2Do3HAAdrfUG/j9erwIk6gha/Hp9yZlCnPTX+ VK+xifQqt8RtMqS5R/S8z0msJMI/ajNU03kFjOpqrYziv6OZLJ5cuKb3bZU5aoaRQRDzkFIR 6aqtFLTohTo20QywXwRa39uFaOT/0YMpNyel0kdOszFOykTEGI2u+kja35g9TkH90kkBTG+a EWttIht0Hy6YFmwjcAxisSakBuHnHuMSOiyRQLu43ej2+mDWgItLZ48Mu0C3IG1seeQDjEYP tqvyZ6bGkf2Vj+L6wLoLLIhRZxQOedqArIk/Sb2SzQYuxN44IDRt+3ZcDqsPppoKcxSyd1Ny 2tpvjYJXlfKmOYLhTWs8nwlAlSHX/c/jz/ywwf7eSvGknToo1Y0VpRtoxMaKW1nvH0OeCSVJ itfRP7YbiRVc2aNqWPCSgtqHAuVraBRbAFLKh9d2rKFB3BmynTUpc1BQLJP8+D5oNyb8Ts4x Xd3iV/uD8JLGJfYZIR7oGWFLP4uZ3tkneDfYzsFNBFp+A0oBEAC9ynZI9LU+uJkMeEJeJyQ/ 8VFkCJQPQZEsIGzOTlPnwvVna0AS86n2Z+rK7R/usYs5iJCZ55/JISWd8xD57ue0eB47bcJv VqGlObI2DEG8TwaW0O0duRhDgzMEL4t1KdRAepIESBEA/iPpI4gfUbVEIEQuqdqQyO4GAe+M kD0Hy5JH/0qgFmbaSegNTdQg5iqYjRZ3ttiswalql1/iSyv1WYeC1OAs+2BLOAT2NEggSiVO txEfgewsQtCWi8H1SoirakIfo45Hz0tk/Ad9ZWh2PvOGt97Ka85o4TLJxgJJqGEnqcFUZnJJ riwoaRIS8N2C8/nEM53jb1sH0gYddMU3QxY7dYNLIUrRKQeNkF30dK7V6JRH7pleRlf+wQcN fRAIUrNlatj9TxwivQrKnC9aIFFHEy/0mAgtrQShcMRmMgVlRoOA5B8RTulRLCmkafvwuhs6 dCxN0GNAORIVVFxjx9Vn7OqYPgwiofZ6SbEl0hgPyWBQvE85klFLZLoj7p+joDY1XNQztmfA rnJ9x+YV4igjWImINAZSlmEcYtd+xy3Li/8oeYDAqrsnrOjb+WvGhCykJk4urBog2LNtcyCj kTs7F+WeXGUo0NDhbd3Z6AyFfqeF7uJ3D5hlpX2nI9no/ugPrrTVoVZAgrrnNz0iZG2DVx46 x913pVKHl5mlYQARAQABwsFfBBgBAgAJBQJafgNKAhsMAAoJELKItV//nCLBwNIP/AiIHE8b oIqReFQyaMzxq6lE4YZCZNj65B/nkDOvodSiwfwjjVVE2V3iEzxMHbgyTCGA67+Bo/d5aQGj gn0TPtsGzelyQHipaUzEyrsceUGWYoKXYyVWKEfyh0cDfnd9diAm3VeNqchtcMpoehETH8fr RHnJdBcjf112PzQSdKC6kqU0Q196c4Vp5HDOQfNiDnTf7gZSj0BraHOByy9LEDCLhQiCmr+2 E0rW4tBtDAn2HkT9uf32ZGqJCn1O+2uVfFhGu6vPE5qkqrbSE8TG+03H8ecU2q50zgHWPdHM OBvy3EhzfAh2VmOSTcRK+tSUe/u3wdLRDPwv/DTzGI36Kgky9MsDC5gpIwNbOJP2G/q1wT1o Gkw4IXfWv2ufWiXqJ+k7HEi2N1sree7Dy9KBCqb+ca1vFhYPDJfhP75I/VnzHVssZ/rYZ9+5 1yDoUABoNdJNSGUYl+Yh9Pw9pE3Kt4EFzUlFZWbE4xKL/NPno+z4J9aWemLLszcYz/u3XnbO vUSQHSrmfOzX3cV4yfmjM5lewgSstoxGyTx2M8enslgdXhPthZlDnTnOT+C+OTsh8+m5tos8 HQjaPM01MKBiAqdPgksm1wu2DrrwUi6ChRVTUBcj6+/9IJ81H2P2gJk3Ls3AVIxIffLoY34E +MYSfkEjBz0E8CLOcAw7JIwAaeBT In-Reply-To: <87y0rdt16v.fsf@alyssa.is> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------cQYup7rxY3HIWUSpKPYDGi71" Message-ID-Hash: V63N6YP2J3NP2TBR6IF7JNCLXDSXT7DT X-Message-ID-Hash: V63N6YP2J3NP2TBR6IF7JNCLXDSXT7DT X-MailFrom: demiobenour@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-0; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-1; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-2; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-3; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-4; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Patches and low-level development discussion Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------cQYup7rxY3HIWUSpKPYDGi71 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------I7S9dmYK89M4jjE0N66OQkve"; protected-headers="v1" From: Demi Marie Obenour To: Alyssa Ross , Spectrum OS Development Message-ID: <8b76fb46-a04c-438e-9ff5-e3153ae6f53e@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Spectrum OS management daemon? References: <157e2b88-c292-419a-b5cd-0735d1f78a59@gmail.com> <87y0rdt16v.fsf@alyssa.is> In-Reply-To: <87y0rdt16v.fsf@alyssa.is> --------------I7S9dmYK89M4jjE0N66OQkve Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------yiNL0hwvLP68EjpTwoo2zEwP" --------------yiNL0hwvLP68EjpTwoo2zEwP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/21/25 06:32, Alyssa Ross wrote: > Demi Marie Obenour writes: >=20 >> I'm wondering if Spectrum OS should have a management daemon >> that is responsible for a few tasks: >=20 > I'm not saying never, but I am keen to try to avoid it, and if it has t= o > happen, to limit its scope as much as possible. My concern is that > "management daemon" would end up becoming the daemon equivalent of a go= d > object =E2=80=94 once there's state maintained within a daemon, it's al= ways > easier to add more stuff to that daemon than it is to implement things > separately and expose that state, even if those things have no business= > being part of that daemon. With no monolothic daemon, we don't have > that tendency towards consolidation, and can instead having single > purpose components that can be understood in isolation. I agree that it would be much better to have separate processes for each task where possible. For instance, the program that notifies the user of= VM or application crashes should only run when a crash happens, and shoul= d only be responsible for crash handling. >> - Starting VMs when requested by the UI. >> - Notifying the user of various situations that require their >> attention, such if a VM crashes. >> - Suspending VMs before the host suspends, and resuming them >> after the host resumes. I believe Qubes OS didn't do this >> initially, but that led to problems so they do do this now. >> - Acting on devices being plugged and unplugged from system VM. >=20 > With proposals like this, it's important to communicate why it might be= > an improvement over the current situation. All of these things are > things we easily could do without needing a monolithic daemon. To me, there are a couple advantages of using one or more daemons for this work: 1. It makes privilege separation easier. For instance, VMs that crash can notify Cloud Hypervisor via a pvpanic interface, but Cloud Hypervisor does not have the privileges to directly inform the user of this in any reasonable way [^1]. Instead, it should make an IPC call to a (socket-activated) service that notifies the user and logs some information to a file, which the user can choose to manually attack to a bug report if they wish. 2. It avoids putting too much responsibility in the GUI. Right now, the obvious way to start an application is for the user to click on a .desktop file, which runs the needed s6 commands to start the application's VM and the services that VM relies on. Similarly, the obvious way to keep track of runtime state (like "which application has which device attached to it") is to have the GUI store all of that. To me, this seems to make the desktop environment itself a "god daemon", which I'd also prefer to avoid. Daemons are also very good at handling state that needs to be kept consistent. For instance, one could use a shared permission store that the UI and the management code for all VMs has access to. However, this requires that both pieces of code be able to directly access the database. Indirecting through a daemon avoids needing this. One idea I just had is to make it very easy to add new daemons, by writing a Rust crate that makes them extremely easy to implement. Ideally, one should only need to write an initialization function and a request handler, and the framework should do the rest. [^1]: Theoretically it could use the existing interfaces that the VM uses to communicate with the host, but this would be a horrible hack at best. --=20 Sincerely, Demi Marie Obenour (she/her/hers) --------------yiNL0hwvLP68EjpTwoo2zEwP Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0xB288B55FFF9C22C1.asc" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0xB288B55FFF9C22C1.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP public key Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFp+A0oBEADffj6anl9/BHhUSxGTICeVl2tob7hPDdhHNgPR4C8xlYt5q49y B+l2nipdaq+4Gk6FZfqC825TKl7eRpUjMriwle4r3R0ydSIGcy4M6eb0IcxmuPYf bWpr/si88QKgyGSVZ7GeNW1UnzTdhYHuFlk8dBSmB1fzhEYEk0RcJqg4AKoq6/3/ UorR+FaSuVwT7rqzGrTlscnTDlPWgRzrQ3jssesI7sZLm82E3pJSgaUoCdCOlL7M MPCJwI8JpPlBedRpe9tfVyfu3euTPLPxwcV3L/cfWPGSL4PofBtB8NUU6QwYiQ9H zx4xOyn67zW73/G0Q2vPPRst8LBDqlxLjbtx/WLR6h3nBc3eyuZ+q62HS1pJ5EvU T1vjyJ1ySrqtUXWQ4XlZyoEFUfpJxJoN0A9HCxmHGVckzTRl5FMWo8TCniHynNXs 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Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEopQtqVJW1aeuo9/sszaHOrMp8lMFAmin9PEACgkQszaHOrMp 8lPHkA/+NMkqUF1kq9d0JEdF9TGkK00ua15y8DAd5HturAI42FvtW2QyeFaNawsJ LfUhLSlEbrFGgXOiHz471Yorhad+sxZpu1mBg561zby+JWV3BM5mqatk+cMv3Ux4 jXR6vaRhlbnD9oRIgby99SvovzTNqTjUuLJnOg+TeqJmU34jOe4T4cpguefrtdrP oCUEZPnWC1QZ4APKuKQpIUEMc/rnk5Hb+qcyySLVz+v4hRqAUR7E4Ki22hs3WreW iLk2gGoH+UIW27FWcpRpnVbhizjck+jLuiA0VKMOdC1ct4ha4hSYZzAyXGn5fbQC 31H5Jc5/a3wAy7y51T0i53+tqlrI8Em/EAVmh2rwLo3vkhGtN6rVV2HUERPbVTCo DudJm4WOgOPzZa5RiQVfcxXVnj1+f7bJdA5PACEvkm7SbylmO2VAIG41xNCbH/3Q TqUz43QZUKum5cnyukgEPPoNnQ7yI5tvcT3TOzczxHLqptCoYIL8CV2upO6Cdfpx Q3CaPUAdM0PaW7X/2WiKRFZds+0LJtaVLXrb3nK+amYlM96++06agYdNdZ858v1C xizgd+GbPrc4F5CWhsxXNZEtE8O3O6ueSahEI9igrPaXzCmL47gk16Qf6RRDT9GM Gb57RMXSeCZxCssZMF/9MAgbMnQg2kJdTm+212IuohmPGHBUb/8= =Yb5A -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------cQYup7rxY3HIWUSpKPYDGi71--