From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from atuin.qyliss.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by atuin.qyliss.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8B519AAA; Wed, 17 Jun 2026 19:40:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: by atuin.qyliss.net (Postfix, from userid 993) id 87DCA9AA0; Wed, 17 Jun 2026 19:40:38 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.1 (2024-03-26) on atuin.qyliss.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=3.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,DMARC_MISSING,FROM_SUSPICIOUS_NTLD,SPF_HELO_NONE, T_PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=4.0.1 Received: from mail-108-mta238.mxroute.com (mail-108-mta238.mxroute.com [136.175.108.238]) by atuin.qyliss.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 386BA9A9D for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2026 19:40:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from filter006.mxroute.com ([136.175.111.3] filter006.mxroute.com) (Authenticated sender: mN4UYu2MZsgR) by mail-108-mta238.mxroute.com (ZoneMTA) with ESMTPSA id 19ed71989db00067f7.002 for (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384); Wed, 17 Jun 2026 19:40:35 +0000 X-Zone-Loop: 62b7286d6ba9f182cfde8b40fe11445fb47569f9e7f1 X-Originating-IP: [136.175.111.3] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gagarin.work; s=x; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: From:References:Cc:To:Subject:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:Sender:Reply-To: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=pjI/1O7z4ZofjGiELr+Skh7HwAuPwM4U5ZnizhbCiOQ=; b=jWUVgLYPy0qaaAkKnPUb9gKd4I 1hPhtVT15+zBq1lmpFYG7+JcNpyjH4uE3rfBD49A31Yt4UDBK7pTlM0mnas22AdQHtEho1pmIMyoH GIjnn0DV3WQpqUJwMaBfmIemu15lRTtmR9NmuR0+X5C50+c2J1bGE0aG0d23QFaZkp0n/7+0x8Dt7 XSyWt6O4qHqCu1/u9guUci/lcwOHoJsHT8jku3soBe0abDR0CHtv9qOOTXjSmQvGSnV+JKdoB4JK9 cc+IDb8Yn30GQWCfbaPy/YXw/moIp3U8JqQ0rLY/3Jx94FlPYz0F8VpM2u568JIZ3nMikv93w5m6K 1J5BfwtA==; Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2026 21:40:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [PATCH] Documentation: reword the distinctive feature of shared state To: Alyssa Ross References: <20260617132414.103828-1-valentin@gagarin.work> <87o6h9p0mk.fsf@alyssa.is> Content-Language: en-US From: Valentin Gagarin In-Reply-To: <87o6h9p0mk.fsf@alyssa.is> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-Id: valentin@gagarin.work Message-ID-Hash: 5NO7SF6OIW334I7GLMMDFLTMEZFGUF3O X-Message-ID-Hash: 5NO7SF6OIW334I7GLMMDFLTMEZFGUF3O X-MailFrom: valentin@gagarin.work X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-0; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-1; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-2; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-3; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-4; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: devel@spectrum-os.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list List-Id: Patches and low-level development discussion Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > The "still" appears to have got lost from the actual diff. Should I put > it back in? Oh yes, please. Sorry, apparently I dropped it while changing it back and forth. >> - s/backed up and// >> >> The difficulty of backing up is a specific instance of the >> fragmentation problem. But this is likely only evident to Qubes >> users. We can expect most readers to know about it theoretically at >> best. While it's not wrong to have this sort of anchor, keeping it >> risks diluting the main message. > > I'm concerned that removing the more specific verbs here might make it > more difficult to understand /why/ treating the system as a whole is > desirable. We don't have to be so specific as to call out backups or > management, but I think without talking about something more specific, > even if that's just "thinking", as in "one only needs to think about a > single system", it loses its motivation. Yes, what we're trying to convey here feels tricky to get right. Not sure "thinking of" is more specific than "treating", but maybe it better gets across a sentiment of "conceptualising" (in the sense of: mentally grasping). In my drafting I was mainly focused on the interaction with the system, since I came from the original which worked with examples of handling the system and thus *implied* some thinking. Maybe thinking is just the right thing. At least this sounds perfectly fine to me: This means that the system can be thought of as a whole, rather than many virtual machines each becoming a system of its own. One could argue that thinking about a system is a very specific interaction we perform very often... Feel free to fix it up like that, otherwise I'll give it another round of ideas. Signed-off-by: Valentin Gagarin > >> - "each becoming a system of its own" >> >> This captures the Qubes failure mode Spectrum avoids, where per-VM state >> accumulation forces operators into what amounts to orchestrating >> a cluster on one's desktop. >> >> In the original, the contrast to Qubes would not be as strong for >> people only familiar with it superficially. Being more explicit about >> the nature of the problem helps establishing the narrative frame and >> original motivation of Spectrum early on, part of which is overcoming >> Qubes limitations. > > Missing Signed-off-by. > >> --- >> Documentation/index.html | 6 +++--- >> 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-) >> >> diff --git a/Documentation/index.html b/Documentation/index.html >> index 6d6faf7..0ea0a2f 100644 >> --- a/Documentation/index.html >> +++ b/Documentation/index.html >> @@ -23,9 +23,9 @@ such systems. >> >>

>> User data and application state will be managed centrally, while >> -remaining isolated, meaning that the system can be backed up and >> -managed as a whole, rather than mixed up in several dozen virtual >> -machines. >> +remaining isolated. This means that the system can be >> +treated as a whole, rather than many virtual >> +machines each becoming a system of its own. >> >>

>> Spectrum is an upstream-first project. Wherever possible, we aim to >> -- >> 2.54.0