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Sun, 27 Jul 2025 14:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2025 17:36:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: Alyssa Ross , Spectrum OS Development References: <2f8aaac8-0407-41f8-86c1-caa5f8b2543e@gmail.com> <87pldnfeq8.fsf@alyssa.is> Content-Language: en-US From: Demi Marie Obenour Autocrypt: addr=demiobenour@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBFp+A0oBEADffj6anl9/BHhUSxGTICeVl2tob7hPDdhHNgPR4C8xlYt5q49yB+l2nipd aq+4Gk6FZfqC825TKl7eRpUjMriwle4r3R0ydSIGcy4M6eb0IcxmuPYfbWpr/si88QKgyGSV Z7GeNW1UnzTdhYHuFlk8dBSmB1fzhEYEk0RcJqg4AKoq6/3/UorR+FaSuVwT7rqzGrTlscnT DlPWgRzrQ3jssesI7sZLm82E3pJSgaUoCdCOlL7MMPCJwI8JpPlBedRpe9tfVyfu3euTPLPx wcV3L/cfWPGSL4PofBtB8NUU6QwYiQ9Hzx4xOyn67zW73/G0Q2vPPRst8LBDqlxLjbtx/WLR 6h3nBc3eyuZ+q62HS1pJ5EvUT1vjyJ1ySrqtUXWQ4XlZyoEFUfpJxJoN0A9HCxmHGVckzTRl 5FMWo8TCniHynNXsBtDQbabt7aNEOaAJdE7to0AH3T/Bvwzcp0ZJtBk0EM6YeMLtotUut7h2 Bkg1b//r6bTBswMBXVJ5H44Qf0+eKeUg7whSC9qpYOzzrm7+0r9F5u3qF8ZTx55TJc2g656C 9a1P1MYVysLvkLvS4H+crmxA/i08Tc1h+x9RRvqba4lSzZ6/Tmt60DPM5Sc4R0nSm9BBff0N m0bSNRS8InXdO1Aq3362QKX2NOwcL5YaStwODNyZUqF7izjK4QARAQABzTxEZW1pIE1hcmll IE9iZW5vdXIgKGxvdmVyIG9mIGNvZGluZykgPGRlbWlvYmVub3VyQGdtYWlsLmNvbT7CwXgE EwECACIFAlp+A0oCGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJELKItV//nCLBhr8Q AK/xrb4wyi71xII2hkFBpT59ObLN+32FQT7R3lbZRjVFjc6yMUjOb1H/hJVxx+yo5gsSj5LS 9AwggioUSrcUKldfA/PKKai2mzTlUDxTcF3vKx6iMXKA6AqwAw4B57ZEJoMM6egm57TV19kz PMc879NV2nc6+elaKl+/kbVeD3qvBuEwsTe2Do3HAAdrfUG/j9erwIk6gha/Hp9yZlCnPTX+ VK+xifQqt8RtMqS5R/S8z0msJMI/ajNU03kFjOpqrYziv6OZLJ5cuKb3bZU5aoaRQRDzkFIR 6aqtFLTohTo20QywXwRa39uFaOT/0YMpNyel0kdOszFOykTEGI2u+kja35g9TkH90kkBTG+a EWttIht0Hy6YFmwjcAxisSakBuHnHuMSOiyRQLu43ej2+mDWgItLZ48Mu0C3IG1seeQDjEYP tqvyZ6bGkf2Vj+L6wLoLLIhRZxQOedqArIk/Sb2SzQYuxN44IDRt+3ZcDqsPppoKcxSyd1Ny 2tpvjYJXlfKmOYLhTWs8nwlAlSHX/c/jz/ywwf7eSvGknToo1Y0VpRtoxMaKW1nvH0OeCSVJ itfRP7YbiRVc2aNqWPCSgtqHAuVraBRbAFLKh9d2rKFB3BmynTUpc1BQLJP8+D5oNyb8Ts4x Xd3iV/uD8JLGJfYZIR7oGWFLP4uZ3tkneDfYzsFNBFp+A0oBEAC9ynZI9LU+uJkMeEJeJyQ/ 8VFkCJQPQZEsIGzOTlPnwvVna0AS86n2Z+rK7R/usYs5iJCZ55/JISWd8xD57ue0eB47bcJv VqGlObI2DEG8TwaW0O0duRhDgzMEL4t1KdRAepIESBEA/iPpI4gfUbVEIEQuqdqQyO4GAe+M kD0Hy5JH/0qgFmbaSegNTdQg5iqYjRZ3ttiswalql1/iSyv1WYeC1OAs+2BLOAT2NEggSiVO txEfgewsQtCWi8H1SoirakIfo45Hz0tk/Ad9ZWh2PvOGt97Ka85o4TLJxgJJqGEnqcFUZnJJ riwoaRIS8N2C8/nEM53jb1sH0gYddMU3QxY7dYNLIUrRKQeNkF30dK7V6JRH7pleRlf+wQcN fRAIUrNlatj9TxwivQrKnC9aIFFHEy/0mAgtrQShcMRmMgVlRoOA5B8RTulRLCmkafvwuhs6 dCxN0GNAORIVVFxjx9Vn7OqYPgwiofZ6SbEl0hgPyWBQvE85klFLZLoj7p+joDY1XNQztmfA rnJ9x+YV4igjWImINAZSlmEcYtd+xy3Li/8oeYDAqrsnrOjb+WvGhCykJk4urBog2LNtcyCj kTs7F+WeXGUo0NDhbd3Z6AyFfqeF7uJ3D5hlpX2nI9no/ugPrrTVoVZAgrrnNz0iZG2DVx46 x913pVKHl5mlYQARAQABwsFfBBgBAgAJBQJafgNKAhsMAAoJELKItV//nCLBwNIP/AiIHE8b oIqReFQyaMzxq6lE4YZCZNj65B/nkDOvodSiwfwjjVVE2V3iEzxMHbgyTCGA67+Bo/d5aQGj gn0TPtsGzelyQHipaUzEyrsceUGWYoKXYyVWKEfyh0cDfnd9diAm3VeNqchtcMpoehETH8fr RHnJdBcjf112PzQSdKC6kqU0Q196c4Vp5HDOQfNiDnTf7gZSj0BraHOByy9LEDCLhQiCmr+2 E0rW4tBtDAn2HkT9uf32ZGqJCn1O+2uVfFhGu6vPE5qkqrbSE8TG+03H8ecU2q50zgHWPdHM OBvy3EhzfAh2VmOSTcRK+tSUe/u3wdLRDPwv/DTzGI36Kgky9MsDC5gpIwNbOJP2G/q1wT1o Gkw4IXfWv2ufWiXqJ+k7HEi2N1sree7Dy9KBCqb+ca1vFhYPDJfhP75I/VnzHVssZ/rYZ9+5 1yDoUABoNdJNSGUYl+Yh9Pw9pE3Kt4EFzUlFZWbE4xKL/NPno+z4J9aWemLLszcYz/u3XnbO vUSQHSrmfOzX3cV4yfmjM5lewgSstoxGyTx2M8enslgdXhPthZlDnTnOT+C+OTsh8+m5tos8 HQjaPM01MKBiAqdPgksm1wu2DrrwUi6ChRVTUBcj6+/9IJ81H2P2gJk3Ls3AVIxIffLoY34E +MYSfkEjBz0E8CLOcAw7JIwAaeBT Subject: Re: Switching to udev? In-Reply-To: <87pldnfeq8.fsf@alyssa.is> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------ZraUtBeEB05SvExgNR35MLqM" Message-ID-Hash: WIA5DPW2HH6SAW66ADJDYIQQF7CEOISG X-Message-ID-Hash: WIA5DPW2HH6SAW66ADJDYIQQF7CEOISG X-MailFrom: demiobenour@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-0; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-1; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-2; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-3; header-match-devel.spectrum-os.org-4; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Patches and low-level development discussion Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------ZraUtBeEB05SvExgNR35MLqM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------h9rrD3rL4tOkQzmMZy1Bbvkq"; protected-headers="v1" From: Demi Marie Obenour To: Alyssa Ross , Spectrum OS Development Message-ID: Subject: Re: Switching to udev? References: <2f8aaac8-0407-41f8-86c1-caa5f8b2543e@gmail.com> <87pldnfeq8.fsf@alyssa.is> In-Reply-To: <87pldnfeq8.fsf@alyssa.is> --------------h9rrD3rL4tOkQzmMZy1Bbvkq Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------Hv5QZ6DWLyEuafpitA73hbM9" --------------Hv5QZ6DWLyEuafpitA73hbM9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/26/25 06:06, Alyssa Ross wrote: > Demi Marie Obenour writes: >=20 >> On 7/23/25 13:34, Demi Marie Obenour wrote: >> From https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev: >> >> - udev is needed to load firmware for AMD Radeon GPUs. >> - libusb will not see USB devices unless deprecated kernel >> configuration options are set. >> >> From https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libinput/doc/latest/architecture.= html: >> >> - Wayland compositors use udev (via libinput) to support >> device hotplugging. This is needed for USB keyboard >> and/or mouse support, which is a hard requirement for >> desktops that don't have PS/2 connectors (almost all of >> them I believe). >> - libinput relies on udev to determine what kind of device >> an input device is. >> >> FreeBSD also switched to udev for Mutter. >> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D271824#c4 >> states that for Wayland, udev is essentially required. Even >> Gentoo uses udev, though systemd is not the default init >> system. >> >> I think avoiding udev is a losing battle in the long run, >> except possibly for VMs that will never ever have physical >> hardware attached to them. That would require configuring >> VMs with and without physical hardware separately, which >> I would strongly prefer to avoid. If the memory >> consumption or disk space requirements of udev are >> excessive, I think this would be better addressed as part >> of a broader debloating effort. >> >> libudev-zero does exist, but it doesn't work with PipeWire >> (https://github.com/illiliti/libudev-zero/issues/26, still >> unfixed despite being closed) and there are other problems >> with it as shown by its issue tracker. Alpine's wiki doesn't >> recommend it for desktop environments, and while Spectrum VMs >> don't run full desktop environments they do run desktop >> software. Such software requires udev more and more nowadays. >=20 > Broadly it seems like no libudev at all (which was never on the table) > is being conflated with not using udevd (but using something like > libudev-zero) here. To my knowledge, everything you've outlined should= > work with libudev-zero, with the exception of PipeWire as you point out= , > and possibly Radeon firmware loading =E2=80=94 I'm very surprised udev = would be > involved at all in that process so wondering if the wiki is very out of= > date or something. We have USB input working on the host using > libudev-zero, for example. >=20 > The PipeWire compatibility problems do seem like blockers, but reading > the PipeWire issue about it[1], I'm not sure they're fundamental. It > sounds like PipeWire might be willing to accomodate a fix, the last > activity on the issue was only a month ago, and it doesn't sound like > that big of a change is necessary for it to work. I wouldn't be > surprised if PipeWire is among the software that has the most complex > interaction patterns with udev, and given it might be on the verge of > being fixed, I'd prefer to wait and see a bit longer. If that means > that we don't have working audio hotplug or whatever in the meantime, > that's okay. I've put the PipeWire issue on the upstream bug tracking > board[2]. If months go by and no solution is found, I think it would > make sense to evaluate switching to systemd-udevd then, but I don't wan= t > to do the switch, and then find a weak later that the only firm reason > we had for doing it has been solved. If you know about other software > that depends on custom udev properties, and isn't on the verge of being= > fixed like PipeWire is, or if I'm wrong about Radeon, we could also tak= e > that into account now, but so far all we know for sure is that PipeWire= > doesn't work, but might do quite soon. >=20 > [1]: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire/pipewire/-/issues/2398#not= e_2897989 > [2]: https://cryptpad.fr/kanban/#/2/kanban/view/yLtGXWLV6U7X5+Z1ay+oXKZ= MrSacqQe+51nXZYRh3ck/ I think libudev-zero can work fine in the VMs that have no physical hardware, especially with flatpaks that can't access udev at all. 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