From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.3 (2019-12-06) on atuin.qyliss.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 required=3.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,SPF_HELO_NONE autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.3 Received: by atuin.qyliss.net (Postfix, from userid 496) id 97ABC919C; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 14:06:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by atuin.qyliss.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656E0917A; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 14:06:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by atuin.qyliss.net (Postfix, from userid 496) id C419D915E; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 14:06:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from boston-packets.hackerspace.pl (boston-packets.hackerspace.pl [185.236.240.38]) by atuin.qyliss.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7037E915C for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 14:06:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from 83-104-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is ([46.22.104.83] helo=[10.137.0.19]) by boston-packets.hackerspace.pl with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) tls TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93.0.4) (envelope-from ) id 1jkpkt-000335-Pm for discuss@spectrum-os.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 16:06:32 +0200 To: discuss@spectrum-os.org References: <159222865448.15924.2059679729330578851@localhost> From: =?UTF-8?B?TWljaGHFgiAicnlzaWVrIiBXb8W6bmlhaw==?= Autocrypt: addr=rysiek@hackerspace.pl; keydata= mQINBFQ9X/EBEAC249MHVCp7+GGw4/L7m5uIhy7cK32oPvMlvCzVXtUtMZ7mKqeurNxQIzx8 7sfhhu5ZKn1XsB0Io3K70uTWNfxUuVYvigGKmPa52C0iS7irhUouMl5FuT03mvWsggIUW9N/ EYIM2T+HPhw00xJCJ7oMTAmyu69JIqhYSX8N1LevAoS1Po9k6UeOfn+mkrxuGCj8Ei9lfbDd yMah9LyqnNfeO7uk50UL71PoTbAPjZSarPl+J04Atva0pjFp9pdUuqq1sodxRHmLj8m3LZrI bHAuYVO63EYFzFbnRyVICX1y5owW1N2o20YEn2Or1P+IWvddTgI7corydWJlRLiFKzTKLhbX 6HwxqvcRqlC2pNA7igpTvwBe31TriHe1rqnpwZmDqVKhO6GxXslMIq8TFBN2kP82Hj+gTjLu 2GVzgld3JVNIpTzaRovhZPGKJtMXrQ6MDWJ5oQIHmFI1Mrcz0XJdrWcgLG5KcplyeVB8Jjcz G1I3UOydtsG3vkoIrKVTX5sHXg9IgAII1gpszSCnrX/fWBrHhXaJGgBATH44xsaI38+2NNzm 7vKai1PLmaTiag1HlzI6hsQQOCP8iudW9L4cYGHs9TgQ+LEvxeW9m0gumQ8eijDo0hZLl+Tf M+oYdgjT5RY0oe9dLdEixmz/ta22ln41cUWnkNiD1SqLRDKPOwARAQABtDFNaWNoYcWCICdy eXNpZWsnIFdvxbpuaWFrIDxyeXNpZWtAaGFja2Vyc3BhY2UucGw+iQI+BBMBAgAoBQJUPV/x AhsDBQkLRzUABgsJCAcDAgYVCAIJCgsEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRDqpOyBeWUrLhSgD/43DYTu LFMvQqOdYvoMELs2SN0ce/pjg+18YUED6jxJfpi4fNDd//D6awEIBTuM1Ow5LN+SqmIJGj3O NMNUEbSn+nbaq5Zg/OXkzFwZU1nSMAPd84UHflmzBfCFMq8em55fxo7v2i9DrIeoYUSsaGN5 I6fmPfHJnlzZ4yTpUh4qkFgRO0i73YJpPm7sn3wxncWE15cJ3PzdauQ4ZwSr2IxgKNzDSDxM oe9SNRc4VNLF98gv85nEKeDeOOeHhw3Pub+qfivZyJOtNezLpVCuLG2rfMO3gwp9zNNIw7LK cR5Jc0UbfeSDXLBXb+VyV6KLfqfDBw/T4ojwHkJvNK+/DKMt9y3mP6mpuQ3xnU67ZXWFa6wc RVf3uzh9Szdut3RalZwv7llQamhCgstS9M6qMQoSs3EBei2zx2fka2kD/fcaobOVBq3Wb3ph 3+pHc7HIrZcQeo5uUkWhWlRy9eQTKTxZDtyEX9nYmZ/dxhcJUVRS9pL1gYGRVpNr7DPSZOQ8 ygeKijDeWZ+KpsqqIapWqz8T1f3Z115rQ/L9n3JsXzWgLAM4lirfwoe1eUKCC5c9z3N+I2D9 bopJvEPDBIsVZJ38hto28M5F+DzLreG49EnKUdgsEiOrwu/00AR/EZSwn2PYf3/My5N0zhvW p+WlvyC+/XPAeNHPVDCJ49SIRd9WcbkCDQRUPV/xARAA7AJtz40go14VnI18CBJfWJlOT/AH Yi/rwVBTLB+inRfDQgJj1JFkv6Xo60v1PpEUlU5Dv33ATFm/Et98PGRFJ5XcIiThdsL6bBRl ucKHefafukBqSD//S3fly9H2TRewdWMIhkXIys/xtciPRNGU3KZQfuVwrLWG1uCBOS/kA2Ez eTUdbeVvUIE6K7HSSCljC7o2l8XD+ThqKX97s1vr34KmIkwpO6DuM8LXg0dofIqQPFjvfWbV Gy+wq2+fE05D4Rry2cI56jaMGBYLyZVRuvPHeKbi6DxxVyVEl5j0/sa/fLfQlL/gwGgQqg2x ihkE9mmcHvJZTYeUrzpRe+fRZ/1aHMyQeh6AAO0Dwf+Z4jrZYv/U3CPDTl38Nuo5i0TpAQhI zG5K+rn7RvTvFJ/przH0if2ms53Kbr00OS8iq+Q8/3KrioHJCxminrFttcy42mSxaNTJKLno Mv9T+RiN5/cigRtOjSVLzgnwhbWTLqPeWuTpMOPR23H3IjWA9zeYPiXyA1Qbw8dCbk8SPRF7 K2XPFaJrkzE5n5fla+NMS+GurL2Z2JpWhUdQlmh5QogWgL4dfd3tJKFbFnKZ7yUaeNht8rMH wb8FKxlRcNKa0MawAiNVA0QfreRM9jA9hkDLuii8zKXaOsykee8D1wYEMJDWcZhTEC3n6v3J GPD1L/EAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQIADwUCVD1f8QIbDAUJC0c1AAAKCRDqpOyBeWUrLgyGD/9Yeo4u T0nxAOOev8FzTnP2wkIsmdjeLJF4ZGrp8BSNpCcFq5yD1XLwGSFI+lgi6U1K1BLOy/Wml+0U ulboDJL8wj0ZMRdi+SImOZFH/0RCL5QD7fRs8h17Yt83NhiaYDfCmzHvELk2nHvbEPPfIiE8 boLjB5++fCx1kgeV6Z7NoXjtNadGHq+kZWn8P8Eaaw/rS0XDWQsk88Z0la1Gl2/KhrYKSyPy 6G0hoobgZmG9gWoKwOx6z/mkhEpvGQK7nUq2I55FAKM77iI7ef375VtkcjeCrVrrKM11AfdI V2M9qCLri0hTc9QUz5oJxglRVlvPiyrCaZjYdDA41ZVU2aZh2aUSsl5i+UgLGHZbBEs7PEPL x3zqREa3laViLPcb5qUvToHUC3k4ir7XNp/NJJVoAokeGVfu3uSrHUhIyVdv7biWg6YkzDqA 7EAX0p98fB9mN7GEcRmGpJEgY0MUMCQXkwCZuwdUpGluR7nWge6/X1VXFwQEDV+5Dp8LVv7E D8CQ84OZnbPpoNTBbMth7w9E3E3RCFHdCGp17l5QAMenKNukzOjyEwDC46JBExtM3ONjUOoo C6/BlI5tFLIUSFI/WYl0Z5vutz4f38nJR5cl4XvO2MYvCbJe7OxJ209UyQ2g9rtfdgI1tya8 MvpJDBxpXWTGZWj3HuHvLGBY7OqrC7kCDQRUPWNYARAArTD1US/3NCH3IjkjbFsB7EOXL4fQ 8v5trwF8owO8ZMHZgK7u6aMGX05XysEnG006YdYGY8nbPahhc8aC3CdraN3VpvWXbXmltG3u wPuHlhx1sfpx+9j8punfsoPw+5sCWxON5xXriKtF6NqgPcvgOrT/lXJ7u7r2cLZ1OD3JzA1T kz+TA9PKFwGLhCu3x8E0F3gaPEwG4L0Jb7gNXzOYDKJitSop+6qTzXKNVGA6rJmqna05S4PP zsifhHTUrDuON6A2mkfKIZ3pUgRqECWSX3nzgbXcp4e/eIzZYAd8c6j//uTdjdbIF12WdWKP UxEJwbjW4w450Q7uatG7BK4+K+6cUaPTWzqWqClmE3gIO8F+lO5T64Skh3qxoCZLkbajdmP7 Xx0HNyqlhkjdqFXCL6aZLYx/W+s9I/F+kytoJnbxjyEPKp2bVzQ488ghktBIDiyT6qkJe0hm BoGuhUqP4h4XZM6mmu8XStbN+R0qiHSjIGpo7w9m7ahiQi50c1/el3rURESQxWWbyEQ98J7W CtBlo5v5i5gHaylwzs5mk4zV2680Qb6a/iq4Vcqqb2F2PagVHgQ/W24N/iLA1ReTMN2iq9sj bemM2XYUFrKBLnjJzryTC05PDnKASbeSwn6rc129TBMkRKR95ImE114jQVckLffUsjNZuf4Z kdrwMiUAEQEAAYkERAQYAQIADwUCVD1jWAIbAgUJC0c1AAIpCRDqpOyBeWUrLsFdIAQZAQIA BgUCVD1jWAAKCRBSOHE9hZAEHXUnD/9MokD9DI/hZBU8eLkSHTFnh2jr5/WqBIV6jaDXMJTv 97wGbtf4GKj7lQ3Ex/BzYZBd/Dg51K7firhKbilq0P6OHqV5I0LsFeVyXQxYyK52UFdf8wnr KVlVkGwTKFGCxpcH6pc0N9eeeKLRDVjECiuvZDYLJceyO3qov6aEXXYjXk4stEMzO2JWN5ph 0CkVUtVQVAkPIZinO7tVrhqcCm4n1CnoSeGZtJ4rRjOLCJ2ebgnBbTpeYEYqARRAhRz13xnO VZLtTtPW0QJW8QUI4EkaNkrjqNtveQIlxERm8sFj4xleeAI4KYQmihKsksJ52xb2K67AbLdR rejR+e0rXbI15LkJvBgNerNA446TS7ErC84HS6B8aT1tmX9xcC+g/5ismzRxUL3w8p0IG/4z oaTbFTSY/afXn9yAP/1gEBC5Lr8Nx+lSSFiDvn5UFroPQGwWAr8BypeLNn9tqr3EQTZfc5dO 23fxz0lsy+ZtA/vOCJrnrcZ1roNvRiSWLKmdndbaeUpx5WwKxqZcsJjGBwONYzpqfTcuvZT0 u2EPEYIqMwThYYfmAxbIsH9cvXF/g/wsVTqQssi2QSOQsiWF5/qR0n5BIhch2YhvEAwR3ZO+ /k3jZj2CXPV+t5WP+EZBsUGol9hrKl14/KHKHT1CJ/7Ta2preJtfynm1tZZeNDbsV2wED/0a DAi+Sfa1mV2NMEFnL3cnA05gzGMi1IpGpUAzg8+vZk1kW3/4Ttwbsfl/BlD85sPqxWGsJGrF xIxrRrQ07EnXzoKFZ2GMikm7pvKkbDZnF6mhn9VhAcmXRjhL7QPUOu4V0TKkOX7H1Bu8eQ0i 46ehmQR8QZTehcJZqyr0fos2g1a0XY0YfkGrbJZhX254Aj1m0fJSxggYPYB0JqFefhX4+lXA QCNt7mhPHkj+0qeuy27F7syVRa7YW5KROdifrbQ/cjrI9hfoNzKQmEQ4e5c6e4haqQJXihAi JhxkKNAGlbrXR9Z99kkManSJvYQ8kPtFFgzzq5v8jcFtdoYHhGnzr3kJ628j0KZ0CMzOUQiE pRGKqONjXBzTKMOk0QSxcHoZbrO0MMBnTFS/wn2fcdDSUAQ59F2RwtqHKtgrXm06kxict3ly 5Pm6IfVhTqqeU11wtIiLpmRROslHaV4lLSahKNDh1wpvChf3rv4pI92u1pW6TNZVYwSNX8i6 8lgv9jz62QJncEJonNLwHlC2Unbwzwt2oJocIuvZF9Ygj+jtc9nXt0h0rmdktho2stjYro4Q UBNXaDUVwTunUNsQTwR8S7JprGsMpr+CCTGGMedK7VGI9q5ZSZJ2XrMtSKtfCaK/EqQM25J6 wgp0mlDaRN7IuwZCKadhaaaJ803XOr3aoA== Subject: Re: Comparison to Qubes OS Message-ID: <3f3cd409-2501-2718-1198-25f2e8c79c83@hackerspace.pl> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 14:06:15 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <159222865448.15924.2059679729330578851@localhost> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uMr8xEzRQ5YFLMzl7vMhTAO7J2bAMcApr" Sender: rysiek@boston-packets.hackerspace.pl Message-ID-Hash: C2BP3ISCTCARGSXXDS4OEJRJNJPNQJXV X-Message-ID-Hash: C2BP3ISCTCARGSXXDS4OEJRJNJPNQJXV X-MailFrom: rysiek@boston-packets.hackerspace.pl X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-config-1; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.1 Precedence: list List-Id: General high-level discussion about Spectrum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --uMr8xEzRQ5YFLMzl7vMhTAO7J2bAMcApr Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="nyc9KnWzzDuYASS2VW7AGWs7Thb3fchk4"; protected-headers="v1" From: =?UTF-8?B?TWljaGHFgiAicnlzaWVrIiBXb8W6bmlhaw==?= To: discuss@spectrum-os.org Message-ID: <3f3cd409-2501-2718-1198-25f2e8c79c83@hackerspace.pl> Subject: Re: Comparison to Qubes OS References: <159222865448.15924.2059679729330578851@localhost> In-Reply-To: <159222865448.15924.2059679729330578851@localhost> --nyc9KnWzzDuYASS2VW7AGWs7Thb3fchk4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey, On 6/15/20 1:44 PM, infokiller wrote: > Michael Raskin wrote: >>> resources than Qubes'. I mean, if the Qubes folks >>> could fix these issues without a >>> huge effort, even if it >>> meant rewriting all the inter-VM communication tools, they probably = would. If they >>> didn't, I assume this is because this is just a huge undertaking (as= is the whole >>> project), and they're busy with other work which has higher priority= =2E I would assume >>> that you will end up in exactly the same situation. Note that Spec= trumOS is going >>> to make tradeoffs that are complete non-starters for Qubes.=20 >>> True, but I'm not sure this applies to making GUI tools less buggy, o= r having better >>> documentation for CLI tools. =20 >> Yes, it does apply. SpectrumOS is willing to accept quite a bit more o= f external code with >> good in-the-wild track record inside the trusted code base, >> at least for _most_ tasks. So where Qubes needs to reimplement somethi= ng with a completely >> different design (allowing minimisation of TCB), Spectrum >> can (at least in the beginning, sometimes grudgingly) take the closest= thing in existence >> and add only critically missing parts. > I disagree. And you have all the right to. However, it seems to me that the reasons behind SpectrumOS being done the= way it's done have been pretty extensively explained and documented in this t= hread. At this point the discussion seems to focus on back-of-a-napkin estimates= regarding what is a more effective way of implementing certain things. Clearly your estimates are different than those of others responding in t= his thread. You might be right and we might be wrong, but the only way to tes= t that is to start implementing things one way or the other. SpectrumOS made their estimations and arrived at a decision to do things = one particular way. You may disagree this is the best way to do things, but I= feel at this point a better way of making your point would be for you to start= implementing things the way you believe is more effective. SpectrumOS is basically a one-person team. If you're right, you should be= able to overtake SpectrumOS development pretty quickly. -- Best, r --nyc9KnWzzDuYASS2VW7AGWs7Thb3fchk4-- --uMr8xEzRQ5YFLMzl7vMhTAO7J2bAMcApr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKTBAEBCgB9FiEEKiEppFKtTzw/7i97UjhxPYWQBB0FAl7ngFxfFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDJB MjEyOUE0NTJBRDRGM0MzRkVFMkY3QjUyMzg3MTNEODU5MDA0MUQACgkQUjhxPYWQ BB3WNg//aRe3XYT99epZ3ey9dJmycPB9BfKRcF+KYwAAbBzCo/AmHcbEM5VSbsrD 1btf7GihKX+r9X6D61/iBmjPTH4/OYYz8u5itnOzdnM5EV+A+t9bS1DR51Uf1gM3 VtqGD6uKxCQ5xq+bZFIPhtVemN79ydolRVo5fFElNFhYuhAHUo7IOSYxcw5KZYxI LZYEW6E5/9EXj/QDgueOcakCPAa+TQumYj2OrTAqDXd73kXVvtfeycqUPdjZIWyS 7JCe1tyxiGheLLGN+Ggh6RynLwU2jD81yPryosC73kwPdB6CvrRZKTEkUzokKGBy P0YIt+8qWjrdKbKGh+afogURtZLHkTbBeQkEXaDlA/EkS+7wjHuY/8G2if8ZT9L3 wBMQXe5b1oJLsx0jgPCyJmIbHiR2sKYipaHQaN0kjCdeymlu/iy6CFh97mW+NW0/ zOuPX0n5Zjj1JcLRckNmHD2UCCkTDtPuymQhiDq3MLeB8qlI9VRW3j4Zo0u41ggp 5wwoC8dWWzIz0cXDj2UPljTeJ0AvcezNVSgom1/9HyoH7YU1VuqdAmh//fq4DSqk pa6K4u7Cs5H4WvseImznLCzIJ9lLMPoH20W0lqnbZ4wRDUwOua6vhl9xcf/JlLNE dWb9BUT7HVzFv6ccaxECw8/5yzC63f6caPXbefVdi9oKrU/L/wc= =XfHd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --uMr8xEzRQ5YFLMzl7vMhTAO7J2bAMcApr--