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a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mail.ru; s=mail3; h=Message-Id:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-type:Mime-Version:REFERENCES:IN-REPLY-TO:Reply-To:Subject:To:From:Date:From:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:To:Cc; bh=6QHu00TdZMfPZYRoUoPJ6+CAmmMduZRAo/YbCbvIY8c=; b=VhKKop2bSYNZ20D31E5W6fL19hPHazAGtTse32UHpmfW6kp9XJqrIHY1PNyZOjnD0Uj+FIKRnri9V2WameaOEnTrFOcjquGiDCU2fRWkQfQdY8inFf9NWoflE8Xa4uvIYpQelNUxJlPjQoItOm0+cnZTKvM0LwOgXBs9jXz0wGA=; Received: by smtp58.i.mail.ru with esmtpa (envelope-from <7c6f434c@mail.ru>) id 1lkXlt-0001fn-AI; Sat, 22 May 2021 22:58:53 +0300 Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 22:05:50 +0200 From: Michael Raskin <7c6f434c@mail.ru> To: josh@joshdubois.com, discuss@spectrum-os.org Subject: Re: Proxying Wayland for untrusted clients X-Mailer: cl-smtp (SBCL 2.1.2.nixos) IN-REPLY-TO: <28F22202-61F4-42F0-B8EC-B0EC6595D003@joshdubois.com> REFERENCES: (<28F22202-61F4-42F0-B8EC-B0EC6595D003@joshdubois.com> . <28F22202-61F4-42F0-B8EC-B0EC6595D003@joshdubois.com> ) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; 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no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-config-1; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: 7c6f434c@mail.ru List-Id: General high-level discussion about Spectrum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: >On May 22, 2021, at 8:05 AM, Alyssa Ross wrote: >>=20 >> One of the benefits that Wayland is supposed to have over X11 is >> security. A Wayland application isn't supposed to be able to record th= e >> screen without user permission, for example. But in most compositors, >> it can, with no restrictions.=20 > >>=20 >> To solve these problems, I propose a proxy program that sits between >> Wayland clients and the compositor, in the same privelege domain as the= >> compositor. > >> If we can do that, it might be sensible for >> it to live at freedesktop.org? I'm not sure how that works. > >I am curious, if you have time, to hear more on why the approach of a pro= xy vs picking a compositor and implementing security there. > >If the problem is that the Wayland community so far has not considered se= curity a priority, it seems that a security proxy may suffer from those sa= me forces. Basically, will it be easier to attract developers or gain wid= espread adoption of a proxy as opposed to getting buy-in to do security di= rectly in a compositor? You mention writing in a memory safe language and= having a compositor neutral solution as technical advantages. > >Do you think a proxy is a good choice primarily because it can achieve a = better technical result, or is the choice of a new component more a matter= of difficulty getting community buy-in from a popular compositor and doin= g security there? How would you weigh the upsides of a new project against= the difficulties of getting a new thing off the ground and adopted? > >(This is really just curiosity on my part and my $0.02 from the outside. = You may have already had a lot of discussions about that, or even already= tried talking to compositor folk and not gotten traction. Seems worth so= me explicit consideration.) Most programs do zero things right, especially popular ones. With an effor= t, you could get one thing right. Two things (like handling graphics hot-r= econfiguration and complicated policy filtering) done right in the same pr= ogram require either heroical effort, or huge resources, or something like= that. Of from less jaded and more technical point of view, hijacking a composito= r means that you need to make sure changes forced from driver side do not = break security side and people could forget. A =C2=ABI am just a client=C2=BB proxy = could have that nice property that breaking compatibility with it usually= comes together with breaking compatibility with Firefox (on server side) = or Plasma (on client side); and breaking safety properties it expects also= increases the risk of crashes in the mainstream usage, too.